Jonathan Ramont
@jonathanramont
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Mostly post about scholasticism and retrieval issues in the Reformed tradition.
Joined July 2014
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Books worth reading once every few years at least:
Plato - early dialogues
Aristotle - Ethics
Athanasius - On the Incarnation
Augustine - On Christian Teaching
Bernard - On Loving God
Calvin - On Prayer
Dathenus - Pearl of Christian Comfort
Owen - Mortification of Sin
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The Pope is in free-fall. In your charity pray for his conversion. It is a spiritual work of mercy to care for his soul. We know he is confusing the little ones - our children. Remember the millstone warning from Our Lord.
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Natural law isn't about observing the behavior of monkeys.
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Literal Pelagianism lol
If Adam in his unfallen condition can respond positively to the temptation of Satan to sin why assume that a fallen man cannot respond positively to God’s appeals to repent in faith so as to be reconciled?
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The silver lining with all this is that it shows that secularism pretty consistently leads to a sterile society because it places pleasure and comfort over the duties of faith, family and actual society/culture. Christians are going to be the only ones having any kids by the end.
Now we’re left with this, lmao
Absolutely catastrophic bro
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Common narrative, but the reality is that there'd have been no enlightenment without the rise of neo-Pyrrhonian skepticism amongst French Counter-Reformation apologists. There's a reason that modern atheism was practically birthed in France.
Protestantism is proto-liberalismo. If you can't see past your bias I can't help you
There is no "enlightenment" and French revolution without Luther
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@superxtianmario
The same survey also had about 70-80% affirming that God was a Trinity of Father, Son and Spirit. It's bad catechesis not a genuine denial of the faith.
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How we come to accept the scripture as being from God from Turretin IET 1.2.6.
How to dismantle Catholic Answers style apologetics in one easy paragraph.
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Calvin calling transubstantiation more tolerable than the Lutheran ubiquitarian view is pretty neat
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Entirely unrelated, why does Trenham, a SoCal native raised by Presbyterians have such a bizarre accent.
"People repeat this interesting statement ... that 'we know where the Church is but we don't know where the Church isn't.' Have you ever heard that statement before? It's very common and it's hideously wrong."
Fr Josiah Trenham
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@JonnyYounboi
The church I go to when I'm visiting my parents is almost exactly like this, and it's one of my favorite places to attend.
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You have to read Aquinas with your eyes closed to think he did anything close to rejecting Augustine's doctrines of grace and predestination.
@ProvisionistP
@MilitantThomist
Did he mean Calvinism and mistakenly type Pelagianism?
That’s the only rational explanation
Chesterton was right: Aquinas rescued the church from Augustinian Neo-Platonism, the RCC should be advocating that its resuscitation by Luther & Calvin be cast back into the pit of hell
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I'd happily take the affirmative on this. Though I will say the debate would probably get stuck on the question of mixed syllogisms and it wouldn't really be a debate over any particular passage(s). My understanding of what counts as biblical allows me to draw major premises from
Proposed debate topic:
"Does the Bible teach Divine Simplicity?"
I can't imagine anyone would want to take the affirmative.
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God isn't in time. He didn't go from having freedom to not as that would be moving in sequence (which he doesn't do).
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without metaphysics, natural law is merely guesswork.
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Says this, holds to the views that were supposedly misattributed to Pelagius anyways.
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Just talked with a professor, I'll be doing a directed study next fall on nature and grace in Reformed thought. I'm aiming for like a 30 page paper laying out a taxonomy of views present from the 16th to 18th century with some discussion of both medieval and post scholastic
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In most of America if you talk about religion with anyone they'll ask you if you're Christian or Catholic (even if they're Catholic lol). If I ask anyone where the nearest church is they aren't going to send me to a Romanist one. Perhaps what randos think isn't that suggestive.
I unironically think this thread is the best argument for Rome
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Quickly becoming me. Aside from a few standout examples it was a century of people who had forgotten both how to read and write.
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I am once again begging my fellow Calvinists to stop denying the freedom of the will.
Has Turek ever answered a question with the Bible instead of philosophy?
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Regardless of your stance on the extent of the flood I think it's very important to not frame your view as either accommodating or standing against modernism. We don't believe in miracles to own the secularists and we don't downplay them to accommodate them either.
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I miss the tradition of having to write a commentary on some standard theological work to get a PhD. A much better method to produce good theologians than to have everyone run about trying to find some random bit of information that may or may not make a footnote in a later paper
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PRDL is free
Protestant theological retrieval is NOT possible without the retaking mainline churches. Mainline seminaries have access to a wealth of theological resources that Evangelical pastors haven’t even the slightest clue about
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Really terrible handling of Ortlund's response to him
In this video, Ken Ham counters Gavin Ortlund’s claims about the age of the earth and shows how this belief undermines the authority of Scripture.
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I can't stand G. K. Chesterton.
He could barely stand either.
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I'm going to argue even harder about the Trinity now
My burden to “tell [others] about Jesus” is the same burden that fuels my desire to speak out against the harms of unhealthy theology (and to promote sound theology).
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@presbycast
@PerfInjust
He's right though, ministers should be examples of self control, which being overweight or obese is a very visible demonstration to the contrary.
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I feel like I'm going to end up listening to this once every six months lol
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@potamopotos
For the longest time I would always read Augustine expecting him to sound super Romanist and then would be consistently (and pleasantly) surprised that he sounded like anything but.
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This sort of clip makes me wonder of White even thinks the Chalcedonian Definition is biblical. If it is then its appropriate to apply to difficult texts, thats a sort of hermeneutics 101 point that he shouldn't concede to the skeptic (especially as a Presuppositionalist)
"What we're being told is when it says nor the Son you have to take fully developed later definitions of Christology read them back in here and do "partitive exegesis."
"The easy out to Matt. 24:36 is to say that's the humanity and not the deity."
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I'm starting to find Bavinck to be too unreliable to be worth reading on any sort of controversial topic.
LOL
I know the feeling
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There's more to this story, but it wasn't the Calvinists or the Lutherans bringing about what we know as modern philosophy (really just a revival of pre-Christian views) it was Catholics scrambling because they were losing every historical or biblical argument they engaged with,
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Reminder you aren't a Protestant in any appreciable sense if you don't have a law-gospel distinction, and I'm not talking about the idiosyncratic 1517 ELCA version.
Reminder the Bible does not teach “law and gospel” but “works and grace”.
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Modern philosophers understanding predication (challenge impossible).
Basic Syllogism for trinitarians:
P1: Jesus is Yahweh
P2: Yahweh is the Father
C: Jesus is the Father
You can only argue a premise is incorrect. This is a logically valid deductive syllogism. A valid deductive argument.
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The CoW is gracious insofar as the covenant was (1) established freely by God, (2) that the reward offered was beyond what was due to the work strictly speaking, (3) and that Adam received a supernatural principle or gift (my own current work is on this point in particular) that
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An old earther evolutionist that doesn't believe in animal death before the fall.
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@potamopotos
The "Dutch" Reformed church in Nigeria is larger than the entire confessionally Reformed tradition in the US lol
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Started my next paper project on the use of formal distinctions in the high Reformed Orthodox. I will return to my work on the nature grace distinction when I have a bit of time and a certain book gets returned to the sem library.
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Ursinus Replying to Objections to the Reformed Doctrine of Concupiscence (On the Tenth Commandment Obj. 4):
Obj. 4. Original sin is removed in baptism. Therefore, concupiscence is no sin in those who are baptized. We reply to the antecedent, that original sin is not simply and
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In the same survey (done by Ligonier I believe) it also had similarly high numbers affirming that God was a Trinity of Father Son and Spirit. This is a sign of bad catechesis not a rejection of trinitarian theology.
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not unlike today :). What do you do when none of the source material actually supports your claims (especially once the forgeries have been called out)? You start calling into question peoples ability to even understand said sources and insist that they need your magic teaching
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Favorite theologian of all time: Junius
Theologian I dislike: Van Til
Theologian that grew on me: Dionysius
Most overrated theologian: Barth
Most underrated theologian: Shedd
The G.O.A.T.: Augustine
Favorite theologian of all time:
Theologian I dislike:
Theologian that grew on me:
Most overrated theologian:
Most underrated theologian:
The G.O.A.T.:
Comment or quote with your answers.
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He very evidently struggled to understand several concepts (like simplicity) and should maybe have been more fearful to disagree with his forebearers in the faith who were much more able than he in those areas.
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Best take on the situation. The purpose here is to be vague and give cover to German type progressives without overtly alienating conservatives.
My own TL;DR after having read it just now:
1. Blessings of same-sex couples and other "irregular" relationships are explicitly ordered not to be done in any liturgical manner, or with any elements that could make it resemble a marriage ceremony in any way.
2. Nonetheless,
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It's amazing to me how many of these little apologists spring up out of nowhere and just run the same critique over and over and over again like what they're saying is fresh or original. All the while never engaging with anything more substantive than a sermon or a blog article.
God’s complaining and apparent sorrow over sin and unbelief throughout scripture seems to be a bit of an absurd charade if determinism/Calvinism is true. As Jesus weeps over Jerusalem, it’s as if while he complains, cries and bemoans their “not finding the key” and “unlocking the
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Reading Thomas exposes the shallowness of modern theology, which can very easily tempt people towards Rome if the impression is that Rome isn't as shallow as the rest of us rn. The solution to this problem is to engage critically not double down on the anti-intellectualism
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I've looked at his dissertation online and I couldn't commend this more.
This is an important contribution on the appropriation of Thomism in Reformed theology and ethics. It addresses the right questions and is alert to the complicating factors.
(Visit your local library.)
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I am Reformed. I am Catholic. I am Lutheran. I am Evangelical. I am Protestant. I am not a Papist. I am not a Ubiquitarian. I am Reformed. Know the difference.
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Abortion: Medieval
LGBT: Medieval
Guns: 1776
Healthcare: complicated
Regulations: far less but not none.
Taxes: again less but not none.
Crime: Medieval
Drugs: Medieval (it's witchcraft)
Environment: Tolkien
Immigration: Trump!
Foreign policy: 1920s
Trade: mild protectionist
Abortion: Lean R
LGBT: Lean/Likely D
Guns: Likely R
Healthcare: Lean D
Regulations: Lean D
Taxes: Tossup
Crime: Solid R
Drugs: Lean D
Environment: Lean D
Immigration: Likely R
Foreign policy: Tossup
Trade: Tossup
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It didn't help that there was also a whole generation of orphaned Huguenots, who also became atheists in bulk, wonder why that happened?
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The Reformed weren't uniform in this, figures like Ames and others were decidedly more nominalist in their approach than say Vermigli or Junius. It's better to see the Reformed as carrying forward several schools of medieval thought rather than forming one new one.
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A reminder that the Reformed Orthodox treated the Medieval Scholastics more like Egyptians to be plundered than a school to enroll in and follow to a tee.
How Scotus-Bashing Can Backfire for the Reformed🧵:
In Reformation as Renewal, Barrett cites Nieuwenhove saying that Scotus is an "occasionalist as to the sacraments, denying their instrumentality" (234n123). Its unclear whether Barrett thinks this specifically to be good thing,
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Matt reformulating the same critique he uses every day for the third time today.
Even Calvinists should admit that if Calvinism is false then Calvinistic beliefs are clearly from the devil.
Ironically, Calvinists must admit that if they are correct and I’m wrong then my beliefs are still from God… as is literally everything else. Lol
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I'm not a libertarian anymore because I came to believe that the state isn't merely supposed to restrain evil but is also meant to shepherd its people towards the good.
Quote tweet this with why you are no longer a libertarian
I'll start, I realized that libertarianism is nothing more than a speed bump because those who are willing to use power to rule will, always rule over those unwilling to use power.
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@MilitantThomist
If it's within the federal government's powers to make murder illegal then we can ban abortion.
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I tire very quickly of terms like relational or covenantal being used in theology as if by merely invoking the terms we're suddenly gaining new ground or a fresh perspective. 90% of the time, it just leaves me confused as to what the point is supposed to be.
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That constant feeling that my schooling is interfering too much with my education.
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@Low_Churchman
Whereas most Protestants are usually content to encourage people to join any church where the word is rightly preached and the sacraments are rightly administered. Odd!
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The denial of supernatural graces/gifts before the fall seems to be due to a misunderstanding of Reformed orthodox critiques of the Roman Catholic positions, accelerated by a severe distaste for talk about grace/supernature and nature amongst early Neo-Calvinists.
Diagnostic Qs for determining whether you believe in the "supperadded gift" (even if you say you don't):
1. Did Adam and Eve know God's (supernaturally) revealed name "YHWH" in the Garden?
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@bethallisonbarr
Scholarship that obfuscates any clear passages of scripture isn't worth reading.
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For people that make claims like this, what exactly is it about using the metaphysics of Christian Aristotelianism that so inevitably leads someone to Rome?
I have said many times: Yes Thomas says true things. Yes, Aristotle says true things. But when you adopt their metaphysics, the path to Rome or Eastern Orthodoxy is all but inevitable. High church Anglicanism is possible, but I have seen such converts end up in the RCC or EO.
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You should evangelize your children.
I grew up Baptist & this one thing I know:
A child can *not* meaningfully consent to a faith-based experience.
To proselytize a child — to nudge him to get “saved” or to “ask Jesus into his heart” — is an act of spiritual manipulation.
Never, ever convert a child.
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The worst thing that happened in modern theology was the complete abandonment of metaphysics. Everyone, Calvinist or not, is more often than not hopelessly locked into a mechanistic view of the world and all the thin conceptual space that provides.
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Part of the problem here is that both Flowers and most of his Calvinist interlocutors have a Pelagian or Pelagianizing understanding of faith. It's not some natural capacity that God is suppressing for *reasons* it's a supernatural gift which man cannot attain by nature, but one
If you ask a Calvinist why God would decree all people to be born unable to believe in Him but judge them for unbelief, they will often say things like this 👇 as if it changes something about the question being asked.
Apparently, if you’re tied to a pole by God to keep you
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Look at that, all the antichrists are getting the band back together.
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@CosinChristian
Because your average Greek priest, who barely studies scripture, is sooooo immersed in those works themselves
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Bavinck clearly affirms the three ways of naming God (by way of affirmation, negation and eminence) and he even quotes Dionysius favorably in his treatment of the question. Does anyone know who started the critique of this approach amongst the Reformed? I've seen both John Frame
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According to Muller, and it seems confirmed by my own reading, Suarez was the main source for Reformed metaphysics for the 17th century (sans Ramism).
There is a bit of a narrative (not entirely untrue) that goes around that “Scotus made the Thomists,” i.e., that it was Scotists who, attacking the Thomistic school, forced the Thomists to become more precise.
While this is certainly pushing in a true direction (for, this was a
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Reamarkably stupid argument, its not a matter of competition but refraining from giving to others that which is due to God alone. We might be wrong in our assessment but our attitude towards perceived idolatry can hardly be said to come from a lack of devotion to Christ.
How little worship do you give Christ that traditional Christians honoring Christ’s saints is seen as competition ?
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The Holy Trinity is so clearly evident from scripture, you'd have to be a Mormon to miss it.
I couldn't disagree with this harder.
Imagine reading The Bible for the first time having never heard of Christianity before.
The idea that you would conclude with a belief that God is a Trinity is absolutely asinine to me.
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@EdgarTurrettini
"We basically facilitated the biggest rise of militant atheism of all time but its actually the West's fault."
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All good advice minus that pesky papist one at the beginning.
Here’s some better advice
1) Don’t question the teachings of the Church.
2) Major in a worth while degree like philosophy or classics.
3) You’re young. Spend your time studying eternal truths and improving your spiritual life instead of wasting it on fleeting things.
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When did we start giving people a pass on orthodox trinitarianism so long as they're good fighters in the culture war? Why don't we just let Mormons into evangelicalism at that rate? They'd be able to sign off on social trinitarianism just fine.
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Having done a deep dive this summer in some issues related to anthropology, I'm at a loss for how this would be anything other than a straightforward Pelagian view of nature and grace.
@Soteriology101
@theojunkiedan
@VeracityHill
The issue isn’t whether God decided to give man the ability; rather, God has been and is doing that. So the issue is how God gives man the ability, since the beginning and into the future. (John 1:4)
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"lock all modern philosophers in a nut-house"
Turretin IET 1.2.6
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@Low_Churchman
@jacob_conrod
@puritan_p
He cites Augustine the most, then Aristotle then PD (not including scripture which is obviously first).
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"The Church's One Foundation" is a pretty remarkable expression of Protestant ecclesiology. It packs a lot in.
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