DJM Rugbaí
@djm_rugbai
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Opinions some of the time - facts are useful though.
Ireland
Joined March 2022
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In 2013/14, the IRFU decided to invest in its academy, school and age-grade development pathways due to salary growth in England/France markets. They limited funding foreign salaries and put monies into its pathways instead. 126 players promoted into senior squads over 6 years.
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Following discussions about IRFU provinces' wage bills, here's a summary using reported figures from 2022/23 IRFU Annual Report and a possible split across provinces. Remember that these costs include players, CEOs and coaching teams across test team and provinces.
Argue away.
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Published total home attendances to date in URC/Prem.
(Included today's sell out of Croke Park for the EPCR Semi-Final just because..)
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“Irish provinces have huge budgets”
“Players get tax breaks so don’t have to be paid as much”
“IRFU spends much more on provinces than WRU on regions”
Last year, WRU spent €43.5m on 4 Welsh regions.
IRFU spent €43.3m on Irish players, academies, coaches and test team staff.
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IRFU said they were going to take a different route in their development of upcoming young players. Last year it was a tour in SA. This year, a combined provincial academy home/away series with FIR and its Italian young players in Benetton/Zebre.
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@daraobriain
@fesshole
As my great aunt Betsy used to say: No matter how much you wriggle and dance,
Those last three drops go into your pants.
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For aspiring young Irish rugby players, a thread with a detailed look at origins of the Ireland 6N squad and their pathway to selection. The trope of "Leinster/Dublin private schools" pathway is also worth examination, as only a handful of schools produce players in large
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@Geglar9
One sports opinion writer doesn't equate to the whole of the Irish rugby press though.
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Interesting responses from some Welsh fans when they don’t like facts.
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@SquidgeRugby
Hmmmm....
Doris 1679
McCarthy 1468
Henshaw 1425
vd Flier 1372
Gibson Park 1366
Keenan 1317
Porter 1316
Lowe 1288
Frawley 1259
Baird 1230
Larmour 1204
Sheehan 1140
Alaalatoa - 1069
Furlong 1033
Ringrose 992
Osborne 939
Molony 907
Penny, Deegan, Jenkins, Russell 800+
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@Owenins
@davidjusteat
Ireland leads the way on inclusivity? When it has made an absolute shambles of the Women's XV game and ended up alienating most of the squad who had to get government to intervene in order to get people listening?
I think not.
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@walls2
@chat_annie
@AmandaJane61162
@dr_barrett
@DrTonyHolohan
@roinnslainte
Holohan worked in Dept of Health, not HSE. Decision to not disclose taken by individual consultants. Holohan and his team undertook a search of the CC database to discover how many women had not been informed. He informed minister so inquiry was set up under Scally, not HSE.
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@BladeoftheS
He is CEO of Tesco plc - a public company with operations in UK, Ireland, Czech Republic, Hungary and Slovakia. He lives in Dublin and Waterford. He's obliged to pay his taxes in Ireland.
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@edjenx
In option B, Ireland wouldn’t be top of group. They’d win the h2h against SA to get second spot.
Please correct this highly misleading and grievous error.
Tsk tsk.
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For any Welsh pundit/fan wondering why URC fans in other countries object to their constant bleating about the URC.
Please make this happen. I'd take the English Championship. Anything is better than the shite URC
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@RucksSake
They really weren’t deserved winners. They drew. Gave up
a score in the last minute. Bit like Ireland did the following day.
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@JoeNaConnacht
This is last 6 years of IRFU Player & Management costs.
It comprises Test team and Provincial Teams costs.
c.30m goes to provinces - 8m each to LMU and 6 to Connacht. In 2019/20, IRFU said provinces owed 16m in player recharges (15 mo. period) equating to c. €12m pa.
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Last year's expenditure by WRU and IRFU.
WRU earns/spends more on stadia/hospitality/hotel - they own outright and use more often.
IRFU owns 50% of Aviva and uses external supplier for hospitality. I've combined some figures for comparison. Total costs from Annual Reports.
@TheVietGwent
Been looking at the inc/exp figures for last five years. Did the regional guy say what the percentage was calculated on? Income or expenditure? At a rough tally, based on including CVC P14 and Govt grants in both unions' turnovers, the income figures look like this:
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@StueyMax
@springbok
Yep - congrats Ireland - the only team to beat South Africa twice in the last 12 months.
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Leinster and the other 3 Irish provinces do have a salary cap. They all receive an equal contribution from the IRFU towards salaries and then fund the rest from own local income.
As Mick Dawson, exCEO Leinster said last year:
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@mana_rugby
You should listen to what the English media are saying about them, never mind the England coach and their players....
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Cardiff Blues Accounts YE 2023
£11.1m from the WRU coffers.
£10.2m on rugby wages!!
No wonder the WRU is making cuts.
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@Owenins
@davidjusteat
They have been and continue to do so. Long way to go before I'd consider using Irish rugby as a template for inclusivity for all sections of society. Might be useful to listen to people who might actually know more than you every now and then. Just a thought.
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Utter nonsense. IRFU re-charged provinces - €16m in 19/20 + €11.3m in 20/21. Provinces receive next tranche of CVC investment in URC (€13m) and Govt Covid support monies of (€14m) in 2020/21 and cleared player recharge debts to IRFU. They paid 50% in 2022. 100% in 2023.
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Oh look.
What a surprise. WRU did not use CVC monies from URC and 6N on its hotel venture. Instead most of it is being spent on regions.
Another myth buried.
The WRU have not used CVC monies for the Parkgate Hotel, which is L&G financed. Hotel now generating a healthy operating profit. Most of the CVC proceeds assigned to date - and still 3 tranches to come - to the regions. CVC deal not great though 👇
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@ScottBirch17
Of course - I was only including the Croke Park one for laughs. :)
Here's the current picture of avg attendances for teams with no. of games played - this weekend not included yet.
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@TightFive_Rugby
This is no different than what other teams from the other unions have done at various stages over the years. Becoming all sanctimonious about SA teams rotating their squad in favour of their league when English and French teams have done it regularly is simple hypocrisy.
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Oh dear. Trust Cardiff fans to get their facts wrong - again.
Cardiff 80,459 - Average 8,940
Saracens 132,723 - Average 14,747
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@simonrug
Rob Russell could be their next diamond on the wing. Involved in everything. And Osbourne a handful at 12.
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@Overthehillprop
Last 3 years central contract funding and NIQ player payments to Munster could have cleared their Thomond Park AND operational debt of €10m instead.
We could do this all day.
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Commiserations
@ospreys
- you’ve done Welsh rugby proud this season in spite of everything. Hopefully better luck in the playoff places.
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@Owenins
@davidjusteat
You’re talking about whether something is fully representative. Bringing that up in the context of this report is wrong-headed and inappropriate as David Buttress said. Probably should use a different term and another time to raise your separate issue. I’ll leave it with you.
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@Pro14tipster
@jimhamilton4
Connacht Rugby -
€6.2m annual budget
€20m Government stadium grant
€5m IRFU funding loan
Central contract player
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How can Leinster call themselves a proper club when half their players don’t even come from Dublin?
Furlong, McCarthy, vd Flier, Doris, Gibson Park, Ngatai, Henshaw, Lowe, Osborne, Frawley…
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@thepaulwilliams
Au contraire, Paul. Some of us outside of Welsh rugby have been cheering on Osprey’s successes more than some of those inside Welsh regional rugby. It’s a great result and skewers the constant refrain about budgets as the be all and end all.
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@JackoRugby
@StadeToulousain
@Saracens
@ospreys
Is it any wonder Welsh regions are financially stuck? 350k on a player with those few appearances. Madness.
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Welsh Fan Myth Number 182: WRU has frittered away all the CVC monies on a hotel, roof walk, zip line, brewery, etc, etc....
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@10Broderick
Jackman wrote that Munster will be in a mess if they can't replace the players they're losing. The URC title should not be enough for a club like Munster with a good European pedigree.
O'Connor confirming that Munster are good enough to have a cut at the URC.
Same story really.
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This possibility will cause a few jaws to drop down Munster way.
RG Snyman to join Leinster after contract with Munster ends
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It’s refreshing seeing all the myths about URC getting buried with each passing season.
1. URC is run by the Irish for the Irish from its offices in Dublin.
2. How can you compete against Irish teams with their vast budgets.
3. The league is a cakewalk for Leinster.
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Near full-house 49k for Leinster/Munster at Aviva. Full house at Musgrave 8k for Munster/Glasgow , and sold-out at extended Sportsground 8k for Connacht/Leinster. Surprisingly positive response from Irish fans after RWC. Up in Belfast for Ulster/Edinburgh battle tomorrow.
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Sanctimonious clap-trap. A URC team dares to prioritise its position in its league over the European Cup.
Embarrassing from the Bulls.
It’s a quarter-final in the best and most prestigious club tournament in rugby - you send your best available side, full stop.
Picking and choosing your battles in the group stages I understand to a degree. You don’t do it for a quarter-final.
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@JacquesdeWet1
@ormondandre
@mark_keohane
Munster couldn’t offer him an extension if they were keeping Kleyn. Too many NIQs and NIQ locks under IRFU quota rules. He’s only getting a one-year deal at Leinster.
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@TheRugbyPaper
1. IRFU pay 7 Leinster players on central contracts this season.
2. Jenkins, Molony and Alaalatoa are leaving to free up budget.
3. Snyman will be on a 1-year pay to play contract.
4. Barrett is for 6 months.
5. Leinster don't have £12m/€14.2m available each season for squad.
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@harlequin1974
@jimhamilton4
To be fairer, since 2010, they've been in 7 European finals, won 4 titles, 9 league finals and won 6 league titles.
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@DaiOConnor
@sionbarry
WRU expenditure was £37.6m to regions last year.
SRU - £25.6m to its pro teams.
IRFU - £33.2m to its test team and provincial players/management.
These figures include competition income received by unions from URC/EPCR.
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So we've just finished celebrating the 25th Six Nations. Here's how the various teams did over the last 25 years.
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@RuaidhriOC
Hugo Keenan would be a good pick from Leinster. It would allow/force the development of an alternative FB for Ireland.
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@TheVietGwent
Been looking at the inc/exp figures for last five years. Did the regional guy say what the percentage was calculated on? Income or expenditure? At a rough tally, based on including CVC P14 and Govt grants in both unions' turnovers, the income figures look like this:
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@RugbyInsideLine
The rise of Irish Rugby when they joined Wales and Scotland in Celtic League in 2003/4 is quite remarkable. It took just two seasons to get top spot and they've had 2 teams in top four every year since bar 2006/07 . Hadn't realised Scotland have same number of firsts as Wales.
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This kind of deliberate twisting of financial figures that presents a wildly inaccurate comparison does no favours to the Welsh fan base.
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@ScotRugbyPod
@C_A_T_norfolk
Tier 2 are those teams who don't play in the 6 Nations or 4 Nations.
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First world rugby club problems…
12,800 Leinster Season Ticket Holders face terrifying prospect of sitting beside someone they don’t know.
Other clubs watch on in horror.
Hi folks - the biggest concern when we discussed a roll-out of options with
@OLSCRugby
(& other stakeholders) was the match day experience of sitting together. In a fully reserved stadium, with a completely new product offering, that is a huge issue but one we were keen to
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Average attendance for each URC club up to Round 7. Leinster boosted by their regular Munster game in Aviva.
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Putting the recent 12k Cardiff home attendances in context - they don't happen that often even with derbies or English games. Only 6 times over the last 7 seasons. If the increased support from home fans continues for rest of season, it would be quite an achievement.
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IRFU's funding of provinces over time:
In 2012, Player/Mgmt costs were €28.6m.
IRFU said
Contribution to provinces was €22m (€11.1m comp. income + €10.9m int'l/other income.
The balance of €6.6m covered Test team mgmt, player fees, bonuses.
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@jim_demps
IRFU budget c.€31m for provinces' senior squads and c.€7.5m for the test team mgmt and central players + bonuses. The advance/recharge system for additional spend/top-ups is meant to assist provinces not benefiting from central spend - about €12m pa total on PONIs/NIQs.
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@timoconnorbl
It's a South African anthem - their fans have been singing it for ages now.
Typical Munster, they nick Fields of Athenry from Connacht and now want to try claim a South African fan anthem.
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@OspreysEyrie
It makes a lot of sense. Monies would increase for the URC with higher quality teams remaining. Better value TV deal and sponsors. Home/away games. Negative commentary disappears.
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Some new reported figures in The Irish Times on Irish rugby salaries with an even larger gap now between most players who are on provincial contracts and the baker’s dozen of players on national central contracts.
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@alexfulton375
@Murray_Kinsella
It’s equivalent to a full house attendance in the RDS, but it’s not available.
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@RMcGreevy1301
The notion of selling a United Ireland over a United Kingdom on the basis of better welfare benefits is shameful.
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@haribaldijones
@RugbyKino
Sydney-born?
Or Sydney-born to Irish parents who returned to Ireland when he was 3 years old.
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Doris now part of players signed to IRFU with a “central contract”. His salary comes off Leinster’s books and 100% paid by IRFU.
Leinster list now is:
Porter, Furlong, Ryan, van der Flier, Doris, Ringrose, Henshaw, Keenan.
Others:
Henderson, Murray, O’Mahony, Aki, T. Beirne
We’re delighted to announce Caelan Doris has signed a new three-year contract until 2027! ✍️
#TeamOfUs
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@DonnybrookHum
Nothing like the Snyman move who’s a foreign ineligible player. Kilgallen joined Connacht academy from school in Roscrea and is rightfully dazzled by the bright lights of Thomond. Sure, he’d be mad not to.
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@ek_rugby
@jim_demps
1 Healy 2 Herring 3 Hayes 4 I Henderson 5 T Hogan 6 Henry 7 Hamilton/Halvey 8 Heaslip
9 N Hogan 10 Humphries 11 Hickie 12 R Henderson 13 Hume 14 Horgan 15 Henshaw
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SA fan attendances continue to increase so far up to Round 15.
Total
@URCOfficial
stadium attendance now over 1.12m fans.
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@andrewhdonohoe
@Overthehillprop
Rumoured?? First you have to distinguish between what the IRFU would pay centrally and any top-up that Leinster may pay from their own earnings. IRFU have ceilings on their central contracts. Anything 'extra' above that gets negotiated between player and his club.
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@Owenins
@davidjusteat
Inclusivity in rugby means giving everyone the same chance and making individuals of all backgrounds and preferences feel welcome. This should be the case regardless of gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, culture or background.
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@ChampionsCup
No fixture clash. EPCR provides match times at local time. So Toulouse match will KO at 3pm Irish/UK time. And Exeter match at 5.30pm Irish/UK time.
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@Richard99366022
@DaiOConnor
@sionbarry
No - it's not like for like, Richard as P&M includes Men's Test costs.
IRFU P&M exp - €38.7m
+Test Tours/camps/squads = €40.01m
+ Elite Development = €57.278m (£49.4m)
WRU Regions exp - £37.6m
+ Performance Rugby (inc. Men's Test costs) = £53.7m
IRFU £49.4m
WRU £53.7m
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@JoeNaConnacht
Not really - Larmour, Osbourne, Prendergast, Clarkson, Deegan, Boyle, Molony, Penny, Gunne, Frawley.
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@Brendennel
@talkMacca
There is no stipulation or use of word neutral. EPCR choose and decide the venue as they run the semis and final and get all the revenues. See below from 5 years ago about potential venues.
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@moi_pseudo
@RuaidhriOC
No one called him a liar. He may have exaggerated the number of players but I’m sure he heard them correctly and simply failed to understand. Never mind that he forgot there was another pool match to play or assumed the outcome of those.
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@gearoid_oriain
@Dogbowl31Medb
@brehonisbest
It's not. Because Gaelic can refer to Scots- Gaelic or Irish-Gaelic. The Standard Irish name of the language - as taught in Irish schools - is Gaeilge. Ironically, you're using an English word to name the Irish language.
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@price_huw
Dishonest and disingenuous. And disliking of facts that undermine their view of the world.
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@edjenx
WRT - Irish refs miss los of things, they're hopeless.
Also WRT - Irish refs are too eagle-eyed picking up everything.
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URC total attendances at 439,204 for the season after 7 rounds. Irish teams have the advantage of most home games to date - 4 each. Stormers and Scarlets have the least with 2 each.
Club Averages to follow.
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