chonkshonk
@chonkshonk1
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Here's a list of parallels between Jewish rabbinic texts and hadith:
Primarily found by
@IanCook321
,
@yosef_akiva
and
@hadithworks
Let me know if there are more to add!
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Josef Horowitz on the "Jewish origin of the isnad"
Source: Josef Horowitz, "The Antiquity and Origin of the Isnad" in (ed Motzki) Hadith: Origins and Developments, Routledge, 2004, pp. 5-7.
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Shoemaker has a new book out. Seems to be a collection of essays, some already published, some slated for publication elsewhere later.
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All the arguments the Qur'an provides for why it should be accepted as divine/true
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The best way to read this sort of horeshit is "academia bad because it doesnt assume my beliefs are true!"
For good Lumbardian measure, the word "colonialism" is tossed into the mix
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Nicolai Sinai on whether the ecology of the Quran better fits the geography inside or outside the Hijaz (from the AMA event on r/AcademicQuran)
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Debunking this catastrophic "criticism" of the historical-critical method (HCM).
A General Criticism of HCM
I wanted to post a thread on this before my lecture on HCM with Sir P. Williams (
@freemonotheist
) when I read some of Sinai’s explanations and justification of HCM in his intro of his book on the Quran, but I was all caught up in readings.
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Joshua Little addresses Jonathan Brown's criticisms of his PhD thesis
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Michael Cook gives some reasons why the early conquests were so successful.
Cook, A History of the Muslim World, pg. 93
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@HATzortzis
Thats a lotta babble. The TL;DR is you believe, without evidence, that Gods ideal state involves killing ex-Muslims who dont keep their mouthes shut about it. Its abhorrent.
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@khateeb88
Why didnt you mention the fact that all the r/AcademicQuran users answering this question are refuting the claims being made in the post (including myself, a moderator)?
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Let's quickly run through this silly, apologetic misrepresentation of modern critical scholars. What do they actually say about each of these topics?
@brethrenfpurity
By “critical historical scholars,” you mean those who claimed:
- Mecca isn’t Mecca.
- Early Muslims weren’t Muslims.
- The Meccan polytheists weren’t polytheists.
- The Arabic Qur’an wasn’t originally Arabic.
- Muhammad never existed.
- “Ummi” (illiterate) doesn’t mean
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Islamic legends about the corruption of Christianity: Ibn Al-Jawzi, Al-Tabari, and Al-Damiri.
Source: Sean Anthony, "Sayf ibn ʿUmar’s Account of ‘King’ Paul and the Corruption of Ancient Christianity," Der Islam (2008), pp. 190-199.
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Great thread debunking the new apologetic book 'Abraham Fulfilled'. Despite labelling itself as 'academic', it simply bypassed the academic peer-review process.
Muhammad as the Paraclete: Does 'Abraham Fulfilled' (2024)’s arguments work?
[Warning: Long Thread 🧵]
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Slightly elaborated list of all the ways that the Qur'an argues for its own truth.
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Interesting, Firas. So, why did you leave out the part where all the Academic Quran subreddit users commenting on this crackpot theory, are actually refuting it?
Time machines don’t exist. But if you want to be transported backwards a few decades to where crackpot orientalist theories were seriously engaged, the “Academic Quran” subreddit will take you there.
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Great new paper out by Samuel Zinner.
"The Qurʾān's Detailed Knowledge of the Bible:The Explanatory Inadequacy of the "Conversational" or "Christian Missionaries" Models"
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@IjazTheTrini
Setting aside hijab ethics, its fairly clear that is not something you can assure
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HELLO everyone! r/AcademicQuran is happy to announce that we are having an AMA ("Ask Me Anything") event with Dr. Hythem Sidky on May 18! Start thinking about the questions you want to ask him! Please find more information here:
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There's a hadith in Jami at-Tirmidhi which shares, with rabbinic literature, the notion of 500 years of travel separating each layer of heaven (the firmament)
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In his book Muhammad and His Followers in Context (2023), Ilkka Lindstedt states a few misgivings he has with Shoemaker's Creating the Quran (2022) in the introduction:
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An r/AcademicQuran user just noticed a striking parallel between hadith about the black stone and a description of Arab litholatry in the Sinai according to Antoninus Placentinus.
Link to hadith:
@hadithworks
@IslamicOrigins
@yosef_akiva
@IanCook321
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AMA (Ask Me Anything) with Nicolai Sinai is coming to r/AcademicQuran in a few days, on March 29th! Share with anyone who wants to ask Sinai a question.
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Nicolai Sinai on the historicity of the Satanic verses
Source: Nicolai Sinai, "An Interpretation of Sūrat al-Najm (Q. 53)", Journal of Qur'anic Studies (2011), pp. 9–11.
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Before Quranic studies, I was a reader in biblical studies and the history of Judaism & early Christianity. One of the best things about Quranic studies is that it forced me to bridge my knowledge of what was happening from the 1st-4th centuries to the 7th.
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Mohsen Goudarzi's fascinating new paper showing a number of similarities between the Constitution of Medina and Surah 5 (pp 62-64). I wonder if the commonalities derive from a common source, or dependence of one text on the other.
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If you're going to criticize Little's thesis, read it first. He explicitly addresses possible reasons for the choice of age nine on pp. 461-469 of his thesis. You can find all the screenshots here:
@JonathanACBrown
Little seems to think that the hadith about ʿĀʾishah's (may Allāh be pleased with her) age were fabricated to primarily emphasize or perhaps prove her virginhood/ marital purity.
Granting that to be the case, then why not fabricate the age of consummation to be at 10, or 11, or
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Marijn van Putten (
@PhDniX
) on the existence of companion codices.
From "Textual Criticism of the Quran", pg. 162.
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There's a terribly flawed Yaqeen article out there called "The Qur’an’s Engagement with Christian and Jewish Literature". See the below thread from r/AcademicQuran where several users, including myself, scrutinize it.
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@AlFinlandi
This sounds like it amounts to legitimizing extremely vague connections between Muhammad and what's in the Bible. Ultimately, there is a lack of any credible independent evidence that there is a prophecy of Muhammad in the Bible.
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Dunno if im early or late to find out but Michael Cook's History of the Muslim World has now been published
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@jaanislam
Are you joking? Why can't a historian of hadith comment on the epistemology or reliability of hadith/hadith sciences? Because they haven't "participated" in it? What part of Little's argument depends on this experiential process? Be specific.
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Rabbinic texts portraying Pharaoh as believing in his own divinity
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@othmaanX
This is pretty silly: there are no convincing Islamic prophecies, Mormon documents have a much stronger textual tradition, and Islamic theology is incredibly complicated. There are *three* major theological schools, all of which have evolved over the centuries!
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A parallel to the Qurans "throne upon the waters" in the Syriac Cave of Treasures (Budge trans., pg. 172)
@GabrielSaidR
@shahanSean
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@KerrDepression
This event is not scientifically possible:
This hadith is a vaticinium ex-eventu (after the fact) prophecy, referring to a verifiable volcanic eruption that took place in 641 you dont mention. See:
(1)
(2)
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Ahmad al-Jallad, 12:29-35: "In terms of say the script, the language, the text itself, the Hijaz is a completely plausible environment for something like the Qur'an"
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Chase Robinson on the academic consensus that Muhammad existed.
Quoted in: Sean Anthony, Muhammad and the Empires of Faith, pg. 8, fn. 21.
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@KhalilAndani
True. He did not "abolish" it, he "fulfilled" it (ie brought it to completion).
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New book:
Samuel Ross, Qur’an Commentary and the Biblical Turn:
A History of Muslim Exegetical Engagement with the Biblical Text, De Gruyter 2024.
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The audience of the Quran was familiar with Jewish and Christian lore.
Images from:
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Ilkka Lindstedt: "there is nothing to suggest that Meccans or Medinans were any more illiterate than inhabitants elsewhere in Arabia (or even the wider Near East)" Muhammad and His Followers in Context, pg. 22.
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There are no two-horned representations of Cyrus. The only cited example, the figure in the Pasargadae statue that wears the hemhem crown, is no longer thought to be Cyrus.
Sekunda, 'Changes in Achaemenid Royal Dress', pp. 268-9
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Comments on Muhammad Azami's work on hadith from Harald Motzki, Christopher Melchert, and Joshua Little
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Coincidence at best that the entire corpus of Egyptian texts has one reference to a weeping sky. Augustine also says the Earth cries out (Confessions 11.4) & Jeremiah 4:28 says heaven and Earth mourn.
The Quran displays knowledge of Ancient Egypt that was not archeologically discovered until the 1880s and translated in the 1910s.
Unless Muhammad could read hieroglyphics, this is proof of God.
Sources: Mercer, S.A.B., 2020. The Pyramid Texts (Vol. 1). Library of Alexandria.
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A thread of the questions given to Nicolai Sinai and his responses from the AMA we just had with him on r/AcademicQuran.🧵
(due to thread limitations, I could not include all questions. see the original: )
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I disagree with this take. It is true that if we base this solely on our prior expectations, then yes, we have a pattern where only local peoples are destroyed in response to their rejection of a prophets warnings. However, when it comes to Noah, the
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Reminder that when apologists demand you have live debates with them, this is the attitude they have towards it
(same guy declined my suggested written conversation on r/AcademicBiblical or r/AcademicQuran)
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While I find Shoemakers is wrong, this is a dismally bad-faith reading of all (or most) work in Islamic origins ("all inevitably agenda pushing"). Is
@JonathanACBrown
prepared to adopt the same view towards Islamic sources? And if not, why not?
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Francois Deroche on how to understand the allusive nature of Qur'anic stories.
Deroche, The One and the Many, pp. 6-7
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The AMA ("Ask Me Anything") event with Dr. Hythem Sidky has OPENED on r/AcademicQuran. Get your questions in! He will begin answering tomorrow:
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An interesting observation I made: in both the Qur'an and the Neshana (Syriac Alexander Legend), it is *God* who destroys the barrier keeping back the barbarian tribes, as opposed to the barbarian tribes eventually penetrating through it on their own.
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Some excellent answers up on r/AcademicQuran to this question
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Here are all the open-access books I've found related to Qur'anic studies / early Islam.
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@YHenderson94
You dont really need to justify yourself. The default prerogative for an apologist of any religion is to cry ignorance when someone leaves. If you read all that (and presumably more), you were probably in the top 1%.
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Nicolai Sinai's response to Stephen Shoemaker's assertion that the pre-Islamic Hijaz was a non-literate culture. "The Christian Elephant", pg. 3, fn. 6
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The Pseudo-Clementine literature was so popular in late antiquity and beyond that versions of it appeared in at least twelve languages, according to F. Stanley Jones. From *pre-Islamic manuscripts alone*, we have *two independent* translations of it into Syriac.
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As requested by
@Merry_Fleurx
, references for the flat Earth position in medieval Islamic cosmology.
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Ilkka Lindstedt's summary of the epigraphic evidence for the presence of Christians in West Arabia in his book Muhammad and his Followers in Context (Brill, 2023)
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The sky/heaven being stretched out in Zoroastrian cosmology.
Skjaervo, Zarathustra: A Revolutionary Monotheist?, pp. 340-341
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Here's a new post of mine looking at the use of the terms "Orientalism/Orientalist" by apologists as a slur against anyone who engages in academic Islamic/Qur'anic studies without assuming the truth of the traditionalist paradigm in their study
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The "house building analogy" to the question of Quranic inimitability
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It should be noted that numerous Muslim academics are currently producing cutting-edge work in the fields of Quranic studies and Islamic origins, using the principle I outlined before. And methodological naturalism is not the same thing as *metaphysical* naturalism; there's a
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@IjazTheTrini
@JonathanACBrown
Why do so many of these criticisms of Little's thesis just devolve into, y'know, not having read Little's thesis. He explicitly addresses possible motives for the choice of age 9, although I would note the obvious that evidence for fabrication can stand independently and
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r/AcademicQuran is happy to announce that we will be hosting an AMA ("Ask Me Anything") event with Dr. Ramon Harvey
@RamonIHarvey
beginning on June 21st!
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Nicolai Sinai on translating mushrikūn as "associator" (not "idolater" or "polytheist)
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Why havent I seen anyone consider the possibility that Q 30:2-7 is
(1) not an interpolation
(2) still vaticinium ex-eventu?
Muhammad lived nearly half a decade after the Byzantine-Sassanid wars concluded in 628 (ie he died in 632). So he definitely knew the outcome.
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Joshua Little
@IslamicOrigins
discusses the hadith subgenre of 'firsts' (awāʾil) in his new paper:
"Where did you learn to write Arabic?' JIS 2024, pp. 170–171.
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Ive found a couple of hadith that attribute the view that DQ is Alexander to Muhammad or his immediate followers. I cant say if any of them are reliable (by and large, I consider the hadith genre to be unreliable), but for the sake of interest here they are:
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naturalism, which he simply restated in different words four different times, and "modern morality". Of course, the HCM doesn't assume or really even engage in "modern morality", so we're left with methodological naturalism. More on this below.
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@hypatiusbrontes
If I'm interpreting the following tweet correctly by the editor of this manuscript, you can found this alternative surah name in 4 other manuscripts as well:
@shahanSean
@MohsenGT
@YouTube
That sounds interesting. As explained in a footnote in my Introduction to Codex Mashhad, I found this nomenclature in 4 other old Qur’an manuscripts, including: MS Arabe 343 in BNF, MS 4253 in the National Library of Iran, MS 23 in the Libraray of Nūr ʿUthmāniya (Istanbul).
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The first to ever propose that Dhu'l Qarnayn was Cyrus was Redslob in 1855, followed by Khan in a little later among Muslim writers.
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@muslimcritiques
Oh no, reasonable person thinks its bad to murder people for their religious views, the horror! The bias!
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@othmaanX
Ive actually seen a lot of comments by this account, and I consider it one of the more particularly smooth-brained ones, so Im going to prematurely cut this one short. Just like the above comment, I dont expect more than unargued regurgitation.
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Fred Donner on Yehuda Nevo's argument for a late codification of the Qur'an.
Source: Fred Donner, Narratives of Islamic Origins, 1998, Darwin Press, pp. 62-63.
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Mohsen Goudarzi's new paper on the relationship between Q 5:112-115 and the Eucharist
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I just noticed that the Quran considers the twelve-month calendar to be divinely ordained (9:36)
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How anyone else noticed how diverse Islamic sects are across the Arabian peninsula?
Saudi: mainly Sunni
Yemen: Zaydi Shia
Bahrain: 55/45 Shia/Sunni
Kuwait: 60/40 Sunni/Shia
Oman: 45/45 Ibadi/Sunni
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Could Abraha's Himyar explain the linguistic Ethiopic influence+the non-linguistic Syriac influence on the Quran? Abraha's conquests captured Medina. His kingdom, after separating from Aksum, aligned itself more closely with Syrian Christianity.
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Safwan begins by just assuming that any knowledgeable person would agree that the HCM is "flawed and biased on many levels". Please dont get pulled in by tactics like this: that's nonsense and the HCM is the method of choice in every field of historiography.
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Was a great AMA with Nicolai Sinai. You can read all his answers here. Might do a thread later where I show his answers to each individual question.
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Setting aside the debatable interpretation of Q 11:49 (2nd screenshot), great self-debunk by
@provingislam
who shows not only did Muhammad's audience include Jews familiar with "biblical stories", but that Muhammad was also aware what stories this audience would be familiar with
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Hythem Sidky updates us on his response to Sadeghi's stylometric analysis.
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Nicolai Sinai on another mechanism for the arrival of Jewish and Christian traditions into the Hijaz: interregional contact with other Arabian regions where these traditions were more ingrained.
Source: Sinai, "The Christian Elephant in the Meccan Room," pp. 12-13
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The philosophers' view of Muhammad as an über-philosopher.
Shahab Ahmed, What is Islam?, pp. 17-18
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-"“Ummi” (illiterate) doesn’t mean illiterate."
It does mean illiterate today, but it's also a fact that the meaning of the word has evolved (which, for some reason, this user doesn't like). In the Qur'an, it means "scriptureless". See Sinai, Key Terms in the Quran, pp. 94-99.
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@Alarqb37
@brethrenfpurity
"And the list goes on" → the consensus of academics is that Muhammad existed, the Qur'an was written in Arabic, etc. Your "shock" is manufactured to get people who dont know any better to question basic historiography.
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Muhammad's age of first revelation at forty in the sira as a numerological typology
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The geography of Isaiah 42:11 (Kedar and Sela).
Source: John J. Ferrie, Jr. "Singing in the Rain: A Meteorological Image in Isaiah 42:10-12" in Imagery and Imagination in Biblical Literature, pp. 102-103.
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@BMAkrd
Thats definitely one way to write "Ive never read any work a historian has ever written"
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Harald Motzki's views on wording variation in hadith transmission during the 8th century AD.
Joshua Little, "‘Where did you learn to write Arabic?’: A Critical Analysis of Some Ḥadīths on the Origins and Spread of the Arabic Script," pp. 164-166
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@Haqiqatjou
@GabrielSaidR
Wow, a real shocker that a historian of the Quran would preferentially comment on Islam-related as opposed to Judaism/Zionism related topics.
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Origin of the terms 'polytheism' and 'monotheism'.
Amut Hintze, "Monotheism the Zoroastrian Way", pg. 226.
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