RailUK Forums
@RailUKForums
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@merseyrail
are publishing *FALSE* information regarding penalty fares
- Travel on off peak tickets at peak times is NOT a PF
- Using e-tickets without printing them = totally valid and legit
- Changing trains doesn't require you to miss a connection
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243
If you are unsure if you want to travel at around 1800 or 1900 on this journey (London-Newcastle on Sat 17 Feb), LNER will only sell you an Anytime fare, at £192.80.
Yes that is the only fare with any degree of flexibility on that Saturday.
No Off Peak. No Semi Flex.
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38
187
The Guard on
@LNER
's 1758 NCL-KGX is threatening to charge TPE passengers who would otherwise be stranded.
This would be a breach of NRCoT Condition 28.2.
The Guard is unfamiliar with this condition and is apparently "too busy to check"
Poor behaviour by LNER, again.
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18
174
Why were the only available fare for this journey today over £190,
@lner
@DavidHorne
?
This would previously have cost no more than £87 until you scrapped Super Off Peak
@seatsixtyone
what are your thoughts?
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22
143
If a ticket is issued in e-ticket format, and is permitted on/via Merseyrail, as per the relevant National conditions, then Merseyrail are contractually obliged to honour the ticket, whether Merseyrail like it or not
This message from
@merseyrail
does not reduce passenger rights
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20
132
LNER ticket office / retail staff are under strict instructions to sell the Anytime fare.
LNER are unhappy that our booking site ( ) will offer flexible fares for this journey for under half their price.
Apparently we are "distorting" the market.
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This is wrong; firstly, any passenger whose delay could reasonably be anticipated to be over an hour is *entitled* to be re-routed, as per the relevant legislation.
Furthermore, this statement goes against the policies agreed by all train companies:
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Disgraceful treatment of passengers;
@lner
and
@gc_rail
refuse to work together and the customers suffer.
It is not acceptable.
LNER are obliged to adhere to 28.2, while GC are obliged to re-route passengers.
@hnrwbell
@RoryKleinveldt
Hi, we do not. Please purchase a new ticket for their service and claim a full refund for your Grand Central ticket. ^SG
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55
Is this a good idea?
If you don't buy in advance, the cheapest ticket from Newcastle to London could be over £190, even on a weekend!
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@merseyrail
More MISINFORMATION from
@merseyrail
@HarryBurr_
All third party tickets purchased need to be printed before travelling on our network, including third party tickets that have a QR code. ^Claire
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@mitchell_hurd
@merseyrail
That's not correct.
The remedy for this is an excess fare, as documented in the Conditions of Travel
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@bens2477
@merseyrail
True; train companies in Britain have a habit of this, though Merseyrail are on another level.
This sort of nonsense doesn't tend to happen in countries that run railways well, such as Switzerland, Czech Republic etc.
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Does Merseyrail not consider it worthy of making posts accessible to all?
Notwithstanding the misleading nature of your message, you have not added a text alternative, for the benefit of blind / partially sighted people.
Is this an oversight?
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5
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How hard would it be for TOCs to train their social media staff in the very basics of the National Rail Conditions of Travel?
Is it really beyond reasonable expectations?
@DJBSass
@AvantiWestCoast
Hi Dan, you would need to speak with Avanti as they may have ticket acceptance in place but they would need to confirm ^SC
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TOCs such as
@northernassist
are out of control; they constantly make mistakes, with impunity, while legitimate customers face threats of prosecution
- The ticket was valid
- An itinerary was held
- If not valid, an excess should apply, NOT a penalty fare
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@RichardWellings
And yet they work extremely well in continental Europe, and beyond; why is that?
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Ah, the good old supermarket analogy!
If only there was an NRCoT ( ) equivalent for supermarkets.
But, as there isn't, the analogy falls down at the first hurdle.
@RailUKForums
@LNER
False, it's like saying because you bought something at tesco, it's legally binding with M&S.
LNER and EMR are run by different companies.
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On delayed 20:05 KGX-YRK, the
@lner
guard is going above and beyond, including advising passengers regarding alternative connections, such as advising of the onward
@northernassist
cancellation for people going to Sheffield & advising to change @ DON instead of RET
Great to see!
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@northernassist
If only we had an effective passenger watchdog, ombudsman, or regulator, who actually:
- had the required knowledge
- was proactive
- was effective
- carried out 'mystery shopping'
- had the necessary powers to take enforcement action
@RailOmbudsman
@TransportFocus
@railandroad
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@MattWillisRail
@LNER
@DavidHorne
No announcement stating the doors at the rear of coach L are out of use, this resulted in passengers for DAR being over-carried to YRK
Clearly this Guard is more interested in announcing incorrect charges, rather than announcing helpful information.
That's not acceptable.
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0
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@LNER
@quiensabia
there is no requirement for any passenger to purchase a new ticket; the law does require LNER to re-route any passenger who would foreseeably incur a delay of more than 60 minutes, with all efforts made to reduce the delay to a minimum.
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1
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There is *no* requirement to locate a conductor prior to boarding in these circumstances to avoid a "fine"
@citruspony
We do advise having a ticket before boarding. If you prior to boarding locate the conductor and inform them you haven't been able to buy due to ticket machine and staff, and ask if you can buy from them to avoid a fine. Please can you send a photo of this so I can report it?^AH
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14
Exposed:
@EastMidRailway
@SW_Help
@TPExpressTrains
@tfwrail
@Se_Railway
@merseyrail
@northernassist
@TLRailUK
use a Penalty Fares appeal body, "Penalty Services", who make misleading statements and wrongly upholds incorrectly issued Penalty Fares:
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@AvantiWestCoast
@conradlandin
If you have a ticket for Avanti and an expected delay of over 60 mins, if LNER charge you for a new ticket, you are entitled to a refund of the replacement ticket from Avanti.
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14
Alternatively, if the cost of a new ticket is greater, passengers can purchase a reasonable alternative and bill this to Grand Central.
@robertson_ste
If you purchase a new ticket to travel with another operator, you'll be able to claim a full refund on the original ticket via your point of purchase. ^LA
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Again another example of a train company providing inappropriate advice; unless the replacement tickets are cheaper (which is unlikely at short notice).
The rail industry should implement ticket acceptance; if this is not in place, LNER must re-route the customer, in these circs
@quiensabia
Hello John, you would be entitled to a refund on your existing tickets from your point of purchase. Unfortunately we haven't got acceptance in place and so you would need to get a new ticket with an alternate operator who is able to run if you need to travel tomorrow.
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Freightliner Intermodal after trainee drivers across UK:
http://t.co/sK3co8KlIP...
http://t.co/Vxr617BOu2
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@christianwolmar
If you want flexibility when KGX is shut, it's £190 for NCL-KGX. No Flex available.
Staff are under strict instructions not to sell any other ticket.
LNER are unhappy with our website for "distorting" the market !
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2
13
It is a shame
@lner
and
@DavidHorne
did not carry out proper consultation; and that they did not listen to the valid objections to their incorrect actions
However, it is great that LNER have finally been made to do the right thing; perhaps LNER will learn some lessons from this?
😊 Good news 👏 Lowther Terrace gate re-opens 8pm Friday 19 April ✅
Thanks all concerned for their patience and support on this - it's been a right headache - and props to
@KilbanePete
getting
@CityofYork
to pushback and find a way through with
@LNER
👍
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Reminder to
@lner
that you are obliged to re-route this customer as their delay would be excessive otherwise.
If you do not re-route them, you are liable to pay any reasonable additional costs incurred by the customer.
@DavidHorne
are you aware this is happening?
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Why do
@CrossCountryUK
price journeys such as York to Stafford so high, and so slow?
The options are £100 for journey starting with a bus via Castleford, to travel on XC, or a slow journey via a walk across Manchester for £75
We charge less for a simple change at Tamworth
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LNER are attempting to deny customer rights under NRCoT Condition 28.2.
@RailUKForums
Ticket acceptance would still need to be organised by the Train Operating Company you're booked with as there is a formal process to follow between Train Operating Companies. ^Charlene
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11
Another instance of
@merseyrail
refusing to adhere to the National Rail Conditions of Travel; they incorrectly issued a Penalty Fare to a customer for travelling on the wrong geographic route.
This should be an excess fare.
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Where a passenger is traveling from Glasgow to Blackpool, changing at Preston, any delay between Glasgow and Preston in no way invalidates the Preston to Blackpool leg of the journey.
It makes no difference if this is on one ticket, or a valid combination of two or more tickets.
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@NeilThomas1966
@Captain_Deltic
The Governement are encourating modal shift from rail to air, by a combination of factors:
- reduced air passenger duty* for domestic flights
- rail fare price rises
- abolishing return fares & abolishing off peak fares
(* source: )
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Or, if the new ticket is more expensive, GC needs to reimburse the cost of the new ticket, instead of the original being refunded.
@steve07820991
There is no other option i'm afraid, unless you buy a new ticket to travel with another operator and claim a full refund of your unused ticket back from your point of purchase. When we asked for ticket acceptance with the other operators they declined. ^JM
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A reminder
@LumoTravel
you *are* required to convey customers who'd be otherwise stranded
Please provide appropriate training to staff on board your trains
cc
@AnthonySmithTF
@CBTransport
@railandroad
@TransportCttee
@RailOmbudsman
@TransportFocus
@rail
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3
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Govia Thameslink Railway
@TLRailUK
are prosecuting an innocent passenger because the company lacks knowledge on how
@tfl
contactless works.
Should private train companies retain their powers to prosecute customers?
@LonTravelWatch
@RAIL
@ABCommuters
2
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This is FALSE information.
If any customer books with us, we will offer split tickets where cheaper; if any such customer is then given false information by a train company, please let us know and we will assist them and ensure the train company adheres to their obligations
@Simon_Humphrey
Ah I see, so this'd be what is known as a split ticket purchase, rather than a through ticket and I'm afraid that wouldn't be eligible for a refund due to the ticket type and the fact that train on our network is still scheduled to run. Sorry about that Simon. ^Kirsty
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@jonamuth1987
@merseyrail
You are mistaken.
Travelling on a time restricted (eg. Off Peak) ticket at a restricted time is an excess, under NRCoT 9.5
As for not being "able" to check barcodes, that is the company's choice/problem
As
@Captain_Deltic
would say, "what matters is the message not the medium"
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@rupert_airbear
@merseyrail
was it an actual ticket, in e-ticket format? if so, the Penalty Fare has been incorrectly issued; the customer must be refunded.
or was it a booking confirmation email relating to an uncollected paper ticket? if so, was the ticket office open or closed at the time of travel?
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@northernassist
@citruspony
If there is no ticket issuing facility at the origin station, a "fine" (Penalty Fare) cannot be issued.
There is no need to "ask" to be able board; it is a right.
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10
This is just the tip of the iceberg; train companies such as
@northernassist
and others have been up to all sorts of tricks, including issuing Penalty Fares for incorrect reasons, even when tickets were valid.
Can anyone hold these companies to account?
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11
Earlier today FGW operated a 3 car HST on a stopping train between Reading and London, seen here at Paddington.
http://t.co/9d1yCxTpHj
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@anthony0bn
our ticketing website will offer massive reductions in those fares, as we find ways around the unfair fares
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This is so very wrong!
@RailUKForums
@wendydiprose
@HelenSteelITV
@Railfuture
There is a requirement to have a valid ticket to travel. How it's purchased is the customer's responsibility. Just like buying an airline ticket - it doesn't matter how you bought it - make sure you have one. BRCoT 6.1.3.3 is worth a catch-up. Anything else?
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@LNER
@quiensabia
if the customer is forced to purchase a new ticket, it is the new ticket - not the original - that should be refunded, by LNER.
(if the new ticket is cheaper, the customer can of course choose to refund the original, but that is the customer's choice, not LNER's)
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More incorrect claims being stated by
@GWRHelp
staff at London Paddington:
Can anyone hold
@GWRHelp
to account?
If only we had an effective ombudsman, watchdog or regulator for the rail industry!
@RailOmbudsman
@railandroad
@TransportFocus
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10
Can
@northernassist
explain what's going on here?
Can safeguards be put in place, so that if a flexible fare is the same price as the Advance rate, the flexible fare is offered instead?
Is the current situation by design, or an accident?
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1
10
@mariaoliviaking
The bus from Bedford is deemed to LNER 'operated'; the train from Huntingdon is LNER.
But, other than that, what you say is *exactly* the point being made here.
But is that fair or reasonable?
It's a price hike of more than double.
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The
@AvantiWestCoast
customer service representative has incorrectly denied a refund; we have assisted the customer in drafting a response
If Avanti do not resolve the matter promptly, we will continue to assist the customer in escalating the matter
@RailUKForums
Hi there. This customer would need to get in touch with us directly for us to look into this further. - Kim
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1
10
@penaltyfare
@AvantiWestCoast
@conradlandin
and the Passenger Rights and Obligations Regulation (PRO), which some train companies - especially Avanti - *really* dislike complying with!
However, their attitude to customers not adhering to legislation can be very different; Avanti are very selective regarding legislation!
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@seatsixtyone
LNER are very unhappy with this as it "distorts" the market; staff have been instructed to sell the Anytime fare, if the customer wants flexibility.
So, passengers have to specifically ask for this, and won't be offered it.
LNER don't like our site for offering splits!
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1
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CrossCountry need to stop blaming
@SW_Help
and simply pay this customer the Delay Repay monies due:
@CrossCountryUK
if you refuse to assist the customer, they will ask the
@RailOmbudsman
to intervene, who will force you to pay up.
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@merseyrail
are, again, acting unlawfully
if only there was an effective passenger watchdog, ombudsman or regulator...
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2
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0
9
Yet another example of a train guard making up rules; this time a
@CrossCountryUK
guard has wrongly sold a Birmingham to Oxford ticket, to a passenger travelling on a Manchester to London ticket, which *is* valid via (and for break of journey at) Oxford!
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1
9
The
@RailOmbudsman
is incompetent; they have rejected a perfectly valid claim against
@AvantiWestCoast
.
The system isn't working; the matter will now have to be escalated.
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9
LNER to pilot the removal of Off Peak tickets, leaving only Anytime, Advance, and a new type of Advance "Flex" ticket, which is an Advance but with 70 min validity either side of booked departure.
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A good outcome for this passenger, who was misadvised at Paddington.
Our members provided suitable advice and, following further correspondence, GWR paid compensation/reimbursement accordingly.
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If this goes to court, it would be very daming for
@northernassist
If only we had an effective passenger watchdog, ombudsman or regulator who could hold rogue companies such as Northern to account....
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@mitchell_hurd
@TLRailUK
@AnthonySmithTF
@LonTravelWatch
@ABCommuters
@seatsixtyone
Not true at all; you've just made that up.
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This thread, featuring quotes from
@AnthonySmithTF
,
@Captain_Deltic
,
@BusAndTrainUser
,
@RailfuturePsngr
@StandardBy10
, makes a compelling case for the negative message deterring the use of public transport to change.
0
3
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@JacksonMacmanus
@merseyrail
@transportgovuk
@railandroad
@networkrail
If only we had an effective regulator
@railregulation
who actually regulated fares
If only we had a proactive passenger-focussed watchdog to put pressure on TOCs
@TransportFocus
If only we had a
@RailOmbudsman
who took appropriate action against contract & consumer law breaches
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0
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@MattWillisRail
@LNER
@DavidHorne
Unfortunately the matter escalated and one of the passengers who missed their stop was arrested, due to totally unacceptable language and threatening behaviour towards staff.
But was this unfortunate and messy outcome truly inevitable, or could it perhaps have been avoided?
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0
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Can
@AvantiWestCoast
please apologise to this customer and provide appropriate training programmes for staff?
Can suitable safeguards be implemented to avoid customers being mistreated in future please?
@TransportFocus
@railandroad
@RailOmbudsman
0
1
9
This customer bought a return ticket.
The return portion remains unused, due to a strike.
However
@lner
have refused to refund 50% of the value of the return!
This is wrong; if the customer had bought from us, we would have refunded 50% of the fare!
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2
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@AvantiWestCoast
@CliveAndrews
@SouthernRailUK
If a passenger is travelling on a valid itinerary from a Southern origin station to Birmingham, and delays occur resulting in the connection being missed, the passenger is entitled to board the next appropriate service.
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@chunkyboyjames
@LNER
that is not what 28.2 says; you provided a screenshot which directly contradicts your tweet
It states "any train company...."; it does not state the TOC you have a ticket with at all.
Indeed the whole point of 28.2 is missed on you
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@northernassist
@DJBSass
@AvantiWestCoast
Northern are obliged to convey Avanti customers under NRCoT 28.2
1
0
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Sadly, booking office staff are not always helpful; in this case
@AvantiWestCoast
booking office staff incorrectly told a school group to "buy new tickets"; their tickets were *contractually* valid and any barcode error is *not* the customers' problem
The concourse staff have been really helpful but there isn't anything they can do.
The ticket office staff have been the opposite of helpful. When I explained the situation, the man shrugged and said "you'll have to buy new tickets."
So, we're stuck. 2/4
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6
@ilynnica2
@LNER
You can get around it by either:
* booking with our ticket website; we will offer "split tickets"; or
* booking from Edinburgh to West Hampstead Thameslink, or from Haymarket to London Terminals (etc...)
0
0
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8
Unfortunately
@chilternrailway
staff at Marylebone don't appear to understand how to look up the validity of Super Off Peak tickets.
Poor training is rife in the rail industry; can anyone change that?
5
1
8
Unlawful behaviour by
@GWRHelp
Guards on their Gatwick to Redhill route:
Incorrectly charging passengers using Oyster PAYG is not acceptable
2
3
8
End of an era, the Pretendolino at Euston having worked its last train for Virgin. Thanks to those who joined us.
http://t.co/zohZcjWkKy
0
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@PickGS
Another breach of the Rail Passenger Rights and Obligations (PRO) Regulation.
The way rail passengers can be treated by train companies needs to change.
2
0
8
Multiple issues are occuring with staff at Crewe station mistreating customers; this is just one example out of many.
@AvantiWestCoast
are there any plans to provide appropriate training and instructions to staff at Crewe station?
3
1
6
The
@RailDeliveryGrp
propose to increase the cost of leisure journeys, especially day returns, see:
They want to raise regulated fares, which requires a change in legislation.
It's great news for business passengers but day trippers could see huge rises
1
17
6
More evidence of
@northernassist
's failure to provide appropriate training and sufficient safeguards in place to prevent their staff erroneously threatening Penalty Fares to customers:
Can anyone hold rogue train companies, such as Northern, to account?
0
3
7
Could railway prosecutions be subject to scrutiny, in the wake of the post office scandal?
Should train companies be allowed to prosecute people?
Could this be a future scandal and should TOCs be worried?
0
1
7
Can
@Se_Railway
please ensure staff are adequately trained and do not reject valid tickets?
If staff really do not understand how to look up restriction codes, then they need to allow all off peak tickets through; what they cannot do is make up rules!
0
3
7
why are
@northernassist
mistreating 14 year olds, and demanding they pay with card, despite cash being a valid payment method?
If only there was an effective ombudsman/watchdog to prevent train companies behaving this way
@RailOmbudsman
@TransportFocus
1
5
7
Merseyrail are at it again, incorrectly issuing Penalty Fares for spurious reasons:
If only we had an effective rail regulator, ombudsman or passenger watchdog to bring rogue TOCs like
@merseyrail
to account.
@RailOmbudsman
@TransportFocus
@railandroad
1
2
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This.
Companies like
@lner
and
@GC_Rail
are so busy defending the minutiae of own interests that they lose sight of the bigger picture.
They are far from the only ones; many train companies behave like this!
Things need to change. But, sadly, they won't.
@RailUKForums
@LNER
@GC_Rail
Thanks for that. I bought cheapest LNER ticket on the next train (£90 more than GC ticket).
@LNER
refused me on that train w/o new ticket. As you say neither seem to value my custom
@GC_Rail
Aside from the cost, this has really stressed me out and has ruined the start of my day
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@lner
great guard on the 1900 EDB-DON, dealing with some very difficult customers (without valid tickets)
However, the Guard is placed in a difficult position; you need revenue protection and/or security staff and/or police on this train on Saturdays, to back the guard up.
0
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@LNER
@AliBeeMusic
Single tickets now cost around 4% more than the cost of the return fares did last week
This is in addition to the 6% rise which occured in March.
3
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@LNER
@AlexCutts
'Smoothing demand' means pricing people off busy services.
LNER is effectively moving even further towards airline style pricing.
0
0
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