HiddenThoughts 🏳️🌈
@h1ddenth0ghts
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Science, reason, critical thinking, secularism and sarcasm
Toronto, Ontario
Joined February 2021
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I’m an atheist. If you want to argue with me, you have to argue with the beliefs I hold, not the beliefs your apologist told you I hold.
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Has anyone yet come up with a model of heaven where a sane person would want to go there… forever?
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So are there people seriously out there demanding evidence atheists exist? Or is it supposed to be somehow cute or cheeky?
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The Bible clearly shows a god who’s love is explicitly conditional, right?
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If we are to take the birth narratives in Mathew and Luke seriously, it makes no sense that Jesus could go nearly 30 years before he starts doing anything noteworthy. What are his parents doing with the knowledge that he is a chosen miracle baby of some variety?
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What’s the canonical reason for caring what Paul has to say? He never met Jesus. He never seems to make an effort to track down or learn from the disciples. He just has (at least one) vision of Jesus. Generally we don’t put great stock in people prone to hallucinations.
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@FatallyFlawed5
If she wants to terminate an unwanted pregnancy, helping her do that *is* supporting her.
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Why can’t the Christian god construct a moral universe where you could just do good stuff to earn forgiveness for your sins? Why is that so hard? And how is ritually sacrificing yourself to yourself through blood magic but undoing it 3 days later less complicated?
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We’re essentially being blackmailed by theocrats: agree to our goofy story about how the world was created and let us shove of town people’s throats, because if you ever successfully talk us out of it, there will be nothing holding us back from violence.
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Atheists are better than theists at imagining an all powerful being. That’s why we noticed that the god that appears in holy books looks nothing like that. Instead you get an anthropomorphic egotistical short tempered horny warlord wizard.
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Criticizing religion is a tough balancing act. You want to be as snarky as possible since the ideas are absurd, but without implying that the people who believe those things are less deserving of respect and compassion.
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Once you realize that fictional stories can also be preserved in books just as easily as true ones, how do you maintain the authority of scripture?
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Why do the gods that appear in scripture never have any scientific knowledge which is beyond what the society writing down their words already knew?
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A scientifically defensible Kalam:
P1: our laws of physics don’t work at extremely high energies
P2: the very early universe had very high energy and we don’t know what’s going on.
C: we should do more science. Theologians and philosophers can safely be ignored in the meantime.
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Theism is really believing six impossible things before breakfast:
1. “Before the universe began” is a meaningful concept you can talk about
2. Minds can exist without bodies
3. Non physical minds can have physical effects
4. Minds can create and change physical laws
…
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I have fifteen years experience listening to professional Christian apologists defend their beliefs so I feel I have a decent understanding of what they are. But I read comments here and I’m absolutely mystified as to what religious people believe I believe.
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Cristians have to imagine “atheism” is a whole worldview (as opposed to just the single belief no gods exist) because without putting a pejorative label on it, the atheistic worldview would just be called “reason.”
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Apologetics: “If you assume A,B,C,D, and E: surely you agree that F must be true.”
Skeptics: “Actually you have failed to show A, C, and E. So we reject F.”
Apologetics: “You aren’t paying attention. We know A through E *are* true, because all *my* friends agree F is true.”
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Ok… so there’s god, and Jesus… what is the theological significance of the Holy Spirit part? What functions is the third part filling that the omnipotent god can’t? What are monotheists thinking?
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@JohnRog05265336
@ashlaurlune
@bone00afide
I would be totally fine staying out of it and trusting that person to make an informed decision with their health care provider.
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You call Richard Dawkins philosophically unsophisticated, but his writing caused an entire argument for god, Paley’s Watchmaker, to go extinct.
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What are the odds that Paul was actually a fringe figure in Christianity, not at all authoritative, and just happened to have a fetish for writing bossy letters such that statistically they represent the majority of early Christian writing?
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@darwintojesus
If you’re allowed to include “just assume he exists” and “if he did assume he didn’t condone slavery”, it’s not clear how this is a useful thought experiment. The problem with Christianity is that we *can* easily imagine better gods and better evidence for their existence.
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@sarahsalviander
You’re allowed to be annoyed if you find out people you trusted misled you, intentionally or not. But vitriol aside, 15 is about the age where you start learning about reasoning more formally, as opposed to memorizing what you were taught. So it’s a normal age to figure that out.
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@InspiringPhilos
It would just be different. Christianity is still just the product of existing Jewish tradition being blended with Hellenistic ideas and mystery cults from the surrounding area. The biographical details of the alleged founder don’t account for much.
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Most of the responses to this come across as:
How tragic for you that you have such well thought out persuasive reasons to not believe. If you were luckier, you would think less and believe as we do.
This is why I don’t believe that God exists.
Full video —>
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One of the most memorable Feynman quotes for me is “you can’t prove a vague theory wrong”.
Theism constantly walk an impossible tightrope where they want to appear specific enough to be taken seriously, but always squishy and vague enough to never make a falsifiable prediction.
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Of all the unsubstantiated, religious beliefs, the soul is the most scientifically untenable. The human brain and body are the most studied physical systems in the world. We have both no evidence for its existence, and evidence its existence is impossible.
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“But what if you’re wrong?”
If I’m wrong evidence exists I’m wrong and you can show it to me. The fact that you think the best use of your words is asking me “What if you’re wrong?” is evidence you don’t have that evidence.
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When you probe someone about what they mean by “objective moral values”, you eventually wind up with a subjective agent who they subjectively feel is special enough that they’re subjective preferences ought to be considered objective by you.
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Theism is a framework of non-explanation. The answer to every “Why is X?” Is “because this guy prefers it that way,” and will always necessarily be a correct answer. It’s a linguistic trick that recasts ignorance as understanding. It’s intellectual poison.
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@jacelala
No, infanticide doesn’t include individuals who haven’t been born. We know what words mean.
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@GeigerEmilyA
And yet it was a legally protected right for 50 years, enshrined into law back when people were more religious than they are now. So clearly there’s a robust other side to the debate that you’re pretending you don’t know about.
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Words can’t express the skepticism I have that anything in this will qualify as “new”.
It's happening!
If you are in So. Cal, Feb 10., you'll want to know about this. At Azusa Pacific University.
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@PhilosopherJoeC
That’s not true.
Planets will still move in ellipses, we will still have a common ancestor with primates and chemistry will still work perfectly. Scientific discoveries basically never overturn what came before. They just add reductionist layers under them.
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Is there anyone who simultaneously endorses the moral argument and honestly admits that most of god’s moral advice in scripture is dreadful/immoral and needs to be jettisoned?
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Theology is the attempt to do philosophy, but without the ability to say, your intellectual ancestors were wrong about things. All the various beliefs must be harmonizable across time and geography.
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@SteveTiger999
It’s worse. They only took it up as a cause as a backup after they lost the battle for segregation.
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@CapturingChrist
The only rational position is to assume they’re all false. And you’re stuck there until someone finds a method to distinguish them that’s ideologically neutral (meaning we’re not just going to decide in advance to let all the biblical ones through and make up excuses later.)
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@realKuebler
Disappointment.
This behaviour is inconsistent with the good or benevolent deity which is presented to us in hopes of getting us to convert.
I’d also be confused how the throne has a colour; which are due to different wavelengths of light and this realm shouldn’t have photons.
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Scriptures are just humans trying their best to make sense of a world beyond their comprehension. And how they did that is deeply interesting. But that’s made very hard to appreciate by those loudly insisting that they must have somehow been right about everything this whole time
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Why would an omniscient god want his message spread by a mechanism he knew wouldn’t be credible to rational people?
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@TrevorSheatz
Lean into that. We’re totally on board with you giving people reasons to leave Christianity.
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@CapturingChrist
Remember everything in your life is made of fundamental particles that follow quantum mechanics that can’t be explained by analogy, only by mathematics most people never learn. So if you’re explaining the nature of reality, this much math seems warranted.
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@SisyphusRedemed
Is it really a problem of philosophy? Feels like it’s been solved pretty cleanly.
It’s only an issue for a school system that has to bend over backwards to try and pretend evolution isn’t real for political reasons.
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An omniscient god who had to have known how infatuated people would become with plain, often literal, interpretations of scripture, could have done a better job writing it in the first place.
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Remember when William Laine Craig made his passionate plea for the truth of Christianity: some conclusions are so desirable, we should be willing to lower our standards of evidence down to next to nothing so as many people as possible will agree with us?
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“But what if you’re wrong?”
Trust me, nobody becomes a thoughtful atheist while miraculously being unaware that Christianity and Islam have a magical-afterlife-based incentive structure to encourage you to join and follow their rules.
Grow up.
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The problem with (omnipotently) creating a universe is that the bad things that happen in the universe are ultimately your fault. Christianity is less about explaining god, and more about making up additional magic that somehow creates bad stuff without being god’s fault.
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There are no religious claims that don’t have a straightforward naturalistic explanation. We just consider it rude to say that because most of the time that requires pointing out “someone just made that up and lots of people believed them.” Which many find offensive.
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What’s stopping us from just having debates with the candidates under oath?
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The first rule of philosophy club is not to try and smuggle magic into philosophy club.
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5. Minds can think thoughts and have desires and make choices without the time in which think, desire or choose them.
6. If you start outside of a universe, you can enter into that universe without becoming subject to to the natural laws of that universe.
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If Christian morals were so poorly expressed by Jesus it took 1700 years to decide slavery needed to be abolished, his illiterate disciples almost certainly had no idea what he was on about and whatever oral tradition they promulgated after his death is even more suspect.
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@MikaelKrauze
Intelligent design is literally rebranded Christian Creationism. The proposed school textbook was literally a creationist textbook but they did a Find-replace of creationism for intelligent design and missed a few spots.
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Remember my atheism is only as important to me as your desire to inject your religious dogma into the government and the education system is to you. You could be left alone if you learned to keep your religion as a private practice.
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@hookskat
Yes and no. You see the evidence in front of you and whether you find it convincing is determined by mechanisms outside your control. But you can choose to look for new evidence or learn new things. So you can choose to hide from information you think you won’t like.
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The evidence for the resurrection is so weak, that even Jews and Muslims who share all of the same metaphysical beliefs about an omnipotent creator god who can perform miracles look at it and conclude “meh”. And you want to convince atheists with that stuff?
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Apologetics is a field of professional intimidation. You take facts from complex science, arrange them in fancy sounding arguments, present them to laypeople and act as though their failure to find any errors on the spot amounts to an admission the argument is sound.
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Religion is the art of reframing ignorance as explanation.
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So does the sperm touching the egg cause the soul to be created? Is it drawn out of a Bose Einstein condensate of mental stuff at that moment? How? By what mechanism? Why doesn’t it happen when a man and woman’s saliva mix when they kiss?
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Are there any apologists out there making a good faith effort to find evidence that would actually persuade non believers? Or is it all just preaching, science denial and bad wordplay?
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Atheists have no basis for morality… does that mean since prior to Newton when people had no basis for explaining why objects fell, it was fine to jump out of windows?
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It’s important to remind people regularly that faith is not a good thing.
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All it takes to be an atheist is to realize that “scientists and philosophers can’t explain X, therefore Z must be the explanation of X” is not valid reasoning.
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Religious speech has an implied expectation of obedience. When you say what you believe, there is a subtext of “and you need to do what I say”. If you to say to someone with that mindset, they have “freedom of speech” and “freedom of religion”, they hear that they are in charge.
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@sirtobiaswade
It’s just one of many words that needs to be reunderstood in non magical terms. It’s like “perfection” it doesn’t literally mean anything important but it’s a way of expressing our feelings towards something.
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If you want to practice Christianity in private, your beliefs should be respected. If you proclaim you want Christianity to form the basis of our government, we’re morally obligated to be twice as loud pointing out Christianity is false.
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@jacelala
And their parent who was raped has the right to terminate that pregnancy. We respect that right, and prioritize it above the (potential) rights of the (potential) person.
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A god caught in an eternal struggle against the forces of darkness, evil or whatever is not an omnipotent being.
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Religion is the thing that allows you to take your opinions and claim they’re facts.
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How many people have to believe that Jesus will return during their lifetime and die without it happening before your credence that Jesus is ever coming back drops below 1%?
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The “laws of logic” aren’t fundamental. They took tens of thousands of years of cultural evolution (meaning trial and error) to articulate. Which means when you use them they aren’t “presuppositions”. They have a long history over which they proved their worth.
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@William_E_Wolfe
Christianity it’s isn’t really much for peace either. The question is just what percentage of your religion’s members tacitly use enlightenment humanist values instead of religious ones so we can live happily with the, regardless of what their religion is.
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P1. The Bible contains a talking donkey
P2. Donkeys don’t talk
C. The Bible is not a reliable source to ground important personal or societal decisions.
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@ostrachan
The god of the Bible is pretty pro abortion, pro infanticide. Not exactly a moral beacon.
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Does stuff actually happen in heaven? Or is it just an uninterrupted infinitely long blissful opioid high with nothing to mark the passage of time?
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@EveKeneinan
You could call “not believing in vampires” being in direct opposition to vampires, if that’s your choice. But you’d just be demonstrating you don’t really understand how beliefs work.
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If part of the reason you believe something is true is that you just want it to be true, be honest about that.
I won’t find your claim credible, but at least I’ll respect your honesty and self awareness.
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What exactly was stopping an omnipotent, omniscient god from having an educated scribe interview the resurrected Jesus and make contemporaneous recordings of what he said that could be copied and shared immediately?
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@TDisputations
If the only reason those things are bad is because a god disapproves of them, that God’s non existence would mean those things are fine. So that there’s a causal link there is unsurprising.
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You can’t trust the opinion of a 12th century theologian who doesn’t know what molecules, potential energy, or cells are when it comes to the “natural order” of the universe.
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There’s a distinction between you being a Christian and you feeling it’s important I know you’re a Christian. That extra piece of information is what allows me to infer that you’re more likely to deny science, be homophobic and not understand religious freedom.
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How do you tell the difference between a morality that is *actually* objective and a morality people would merely *like* to be objective?
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If god exists, he knows what evidence it would take to convince an unbeliever and to provide that evidence. So if anyone doesn’t believe in a god, it’s because god *wants* them not to believe.
This explicitly contradicts Christian theology.
So Christianity can’t be true.
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Science: basing your arguments on evidence.
Philosophy: basing your arguments on intuitions.
Theology: basing your arguments on the intuitions of dead people extracted from their ambiguously written narratives.
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@SatiricSaviour
And all of the life experiences you leave on the table because they would offend some puritanical ancestor.
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@CapturingChrist
Because it takes less energy to make up a story about someone walking on water than it does to actually walk on water (and find some non-loony way to rewrite the physics textbooks as a result)
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Left to its own devices, the human brain will immediately start trying to:
1. Carve the world into discrete binary categories
2. Generalize specific observations into broad generalities
3. Infer causation from correlation
And gets pissed when you interrupt it.
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@AtheismIsBad4u
You don’t have to hate the church to be of the opinion that it’s unnecessary and many would be better off without it and even more if it stopped trying to muck around in government.
For you personally, I’m sure you’d be very pleasant if you weren’t threatening me with hell.
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The problem with religion is less about people exercising their right to believe it’s true, but that sustaining that belief requires apologists and pastors passing off goofy prescientific syllogisms as sound reasoning distorting the public’s view of how logic really works.
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If you didn’t have social media to be able to follow apologists, how often would you actually encounter people like that in the real world? How many would have even heard of?
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