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finding pmf | cofounder @primodiumgame prev. @alliancedao @ycombinator
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Pinned Tweet
Putting an entire game onto the blockchain is a solution in search of a problem, or so they say.
I’ve been building an onchain game for the last year, and here are some of the real problems onchain games solve: 🧵
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The reason why most game tokens look like this is because there are no real users that play the game for entertainment.
Playing crypto games is for finding alpha for speculation or for airdrop farming, not for fun.
The only way to avoid this is to get real users by making new
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I have been accused of facilitating the Metablocks rug.
These accusations have been facilitated by fake screenshots, which are irrefutably false. Below are unedited screenshots from our conversations + proof of us protecting our community.
Their conduct deeply saddens me.
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@JosephPolitano
I think this is just going off of their ESG scores
companies like Lockheed and Raytheon hack their ESG scores on purpose to compensate
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the narrative for 2024 will be fully onchain game worlds.
i will make sure of it
happy new year y’all
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we've done it again:
v0.11 of
@primodiumgame
has the most players and the highest retention out of all our releases.
started iterating almost a year ago and happy to see continuous progress.
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Honestly, being able to actually provide value to our supporters at
@Critterznft
means a hell of a lot more to me than the volume or floor. Thank you all, really, for giving us the opportunity to do so.
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I can confidently say that
@primodiumgame
will not exist without
@alliancedao
.
they are by FAR the most genuine, founder friendly, and generous people not just in the crypto space, but also in the entire startup ecosystem as a whole.
(saying this as a YC alum)
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i can proudly claim that I have become an american citizen today.
yes, it’s not perfect, but there is simply no other country better to be building in.
eternally grateful for the united states to have taken me in and consider me as one of their own. 🇺🇸
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imo onchain games are fully permissionless, therefore players can use 𝙖𝙣𝙮 game mechanic to their liking:
smurfing and bots will occur, and unlike in web2 games, you cannot ban or censor players onchain
it's better to design with this in mind instead of brute forcing it.
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@loganclarkhall
well, the strict (legal) US immigration system ensures pretty much only the elite of the immigrants' countries of origin are able to move.
american society is unparalleled in its ability to unlock human potential, so makes sense that people in lesser countries, even if they're
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i just played the next version of primodium and it’s so good I can’t wait to launch it aaaaaaaaaaaah
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because of the horrors of P2E, devs migrated to onchain games seeking different reasons to put crypto into games.
the main arguments were composability & permanence, while financialization is often soundly rejected.
i'd argue that financialization is still important:
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This community is what keeps us going. Waking up everyday to build Critterz with you all is an honor. ❤️
@CritterzNFT
community is nothing but amazing. Just have a look and read this. I mean.. great stuff.
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If crypto is the next computing platform, then onchain games will be the first applications to demonstrate this.
The earliest popular applications for any new computing platform are games:
Computers → Pong
Early internet → MUD
Mobile phones → Angry Birds
Crypto → [???]
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i've previously discussed that financialization is an important aspect for why to build games onchain.
a common criticism is to only put game assets and resources onchain while leaving the rest offchain.
here's why web2.5 games doing this won't work:
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In the 5 days since launching
@primodiumgame
v0.9, we had an average of 330 DAU, the highest we've had in any update.
The Goerli issues slowed down the momentum, but it was also a good way for us to learn & come back stronger w/ more bug fixes and new features in v0.10!
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the current
@primodiumgame
team was assembled only about 6 months ago.
during that time, we've shipped 6 updates, each more ambitious than the last (essentially new games for some).
can't wait to show y'all what we'll ship in 2024. merry christmas team 🫡
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THIS TOOK SO LONG TO BUILD BUT IT WAS SO WORTH IT
The biggest (again) update to our onchain space MMO:
- The game is now composable
- Colonize and build bases on motherlodes
- Create space fleets and fight in orbit
- Build spaceships at the shipyard
- Build capital ships to conquer others
- Mine for kimberlite on asteroids
-
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@quantian1
they had an opportunity to turn ALL of europe into a series of giant skyscrapers and paved highways after wwii
SAD!
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this map that
@orden_gg
created to see all alliances and their territories
@primodiumgame
is absolutely awesome
fully onchain = composable tools like this
over the last round, we have been working hard on several custom tools for
@primodiumgame
which we are now releasing for the community.
read on for a peek at the five tools👇
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a map of over 100k fleet movements (and 23k battles) happening in
@primodiumgame
another example of permissionless composability for fully onchain games. since v0.10 went live, we've had:
- 652,910 transactions
- 110,012 fleet movements
- 23,747 interplanetary battles
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Games are notoriously crowded and hits-based.
Studios spend millions of $ for a dud & indie devs spend years building a game that never see more than a few players.
When they come to crypto, there is temptation to launch a token to fool themselves into PMF.
This will fail. 🧵
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SMASHING RECORDS IN ONCHAIN GAMES AGAIN
The biggest update to our onchain space MMO is now live.
Build a mining empire across the asteroid belt — all entirely onchain. 🧵
Start playing in 5 seconds, link in bio.
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I love onchain games and it is my mission to make it easier to understand
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our approach was always to iterate and measure to see how our product is going.
no amount of growth hacking & marketing will change the fact that people will only use products with real pmf.
once we have this nailed down, we’ll have the big announcements.
we are close.
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.
@primodiumgame
UX works pretty well for an onchain game, but conveniences have been included while we're beta.
(e.g. burner wallets, sponsored gas, high apm gameplay)
expect lots of changes that'll addresses these as we get to mainnet.
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a fully onchain gaming studio:
it's not just the game that's fully onchain, but the entire studio too.
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@growing_daniel
it's absolutely ridiculous; america was founded on the rejection of aristocracy and peerage titles
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For awhile, a debate in crypto has been whether value ($) accrues to the infra layer or the application layer.
With
@fantasy_top_
and
@pumpdotfun
eclipsing Opensea revenue, it's becoming clear that the apps are where most value accrual will be.
As for games, which are the most
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aside from an outage, the current version of
@primodiumgame
is its most played version!
below is a chart comparing its daily active user count with previous versions
how well it retains relative to v0.8 remains to be seen, but the numbers are already way stronger 2 weeks in!
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since the
@primodiumgame
v0.9.1 launch about 2 weeks ago, players have done over 260,000 transactions.
the peak transaction count on launch day was around 42,000/day, which was pretty cool!
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an insane primodium base what on earth
are mega drone factories the actual meta here?
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all in a week's work after our biggest update by far. thank you
@0xNAB5
@0xhank
@CometShock
@intemerson
@AlirezaN95
, you guys are amazing <3
v0.10 is our most played version at over 1,000 players within the last 3 days and space battles happening constantly.
We've also pushed out a giant bug fix patch:
- Fixed building upgrade bug
- Fixed ‘Dripping Eth’ screen bug
- Fixed fleet data not showing
- Fixed join
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i will make the bold assertion that
@pumpdotfun
is an onchain game, and the most successful one at that, by far.
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@AaronErickson
@nickgerli1
why anyone treats real estate (an unproductive asset) as an investment rather than consumption is beyond me
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the current
@primodiumgame
update has over 2x the number of daily active players than v0.8 after a month of being live.
there are also 2,550 total unique players, which is 3x over the last update.
next update coming soon that'll smash these records again!
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autonomous worlds is a movement and also a good meme
it's a proclamation that there can be more than just NFT marketplaces, coins, and defi apps to be built in crypto
but complex full-fledged applications that live onchain
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one of the lessons i learned the hard way:
commits do not correlate with user count unfortunately
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You might’ve noticed I omitted the usual examples of decentralization, persistence, and composability.
In my view these solutions tend not to reflect real problems players have, and thus are not great reasons to build an onchain game off of.
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1. Assets with real value
Crypto assets are just numbers, but because of decentralized consensus, we ascribe real value to them.
For normal games to ascribe value to their game assets, they need to be huge established companies. For an onchain game, this happens on day one.
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First, new products need to solve problems that weren’t previously solvable, or else incumbents will eat up any market share.
Luckily, fully onchain games are a green field with no incumbents competing for attention. We don’t need to compete with Rockstar for player attention.
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the experiences we offer in onchain games need to be impossible (or very hard) to do offchain.
this way, players would play an onchain game despite the UX and friction because they couldn't get the gameplay anywhere else:
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come to think of it, onchain games are the first real instance in which transactions are not primarily PvP.
instead of fighting for exit liquidity in a 0 sum game, you submit txs to coordinate with friends.
onchain games are social; people stay in crypto instead of rage
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anyone who thinks the great man theory of history is wrong has never done anything hard
great people absolutely can and do make a massive difference
it’s a pleasure working with
@AlirezaN95
@intemerson
@0xhank
@0xNAB5
@DangerWillRobin
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the number one use case for blockchains is that it allows software to be executed without anyone controlling it.
tokens create a model where open sourcing software aligns devs and users. revenue no longer needs to be extractive.
building software that runs onchain is a match
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But to do this, it is crucial to make sure new problems are actually solved. For games, this means new types of experiences that players cannot find elsewhere.
Onchain games are slow and clunky, so the experiences offered need to be especially different from traditional games.
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@RichardHanania
nhs doctors also make less than 210k gbp a year lol
it's closer to like 120k gbp
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2. Value transfer
Money in games is full of regulatory and technical constraints for custodying assets. Devs generally cannot custody $, and banks have no API for devs to build apps on top of.
Onchain games allows for assets to be transferred between players through gameplay.
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3. Stakes
Stakes allow for otherwise boring gameplay to be fun. The oft-cited Poker is a canonical example for this.
Gameplay for onchain games is simple, but stakes can make them significantly more exciting because they're built on crypto rails.
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@ctaylor463
ah yes, the english are famous for their propensity for living in climates that mimic their home country, such as those found in southern california and arizona.
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i made this a few years ago before i started building onchain games.
paradigm shifts are a hell of a drug!
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ALPHA
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In web2, the devs own the software and are incentivized to take as much fees as possible.
blockchains & tokens mean that devs now have the incentive to build fully open source software that don't extract. for this to work, the software has to run entirely onchain.
games running
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The most important point is to provide fundamentally new experiences, however.
Virtually all crypto games today do not do so. They're either normal games with a token (Web2.5), or a normal game that runs entirely on chain.
Long term, no real players will play these for
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On persistence:
Games are primarily hits based, decade long retention from players is fairly rare. The issue for games isn’t that they’re shut down, is that players run out of interest in them.
Just because a game can “live on the blockchain forever” doesn’t mean that more
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IT IS RETURNING
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We have lots more to do!
Join us at
@primodiumgame
if you want to tag along!
(disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, please check with counsel before proceeding)
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4. Depth of spend
Traditional avenues have limits on purchases. In-app purchases, for example, have a limit of $99. This makes for poor UX for anything costing more than 0.03 ETH.
Crypto has no limits on depth of spend. Games can be as high stakes as players wish.
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most product categories are quite saturated, and most problems are solved by existing products.
building a decentralized version of anything would not bring a 10x experience, and would be difficult to distribute.
except for games. games are content; there'll always be demand.
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@micsolana
it's actually not permitted though. if you go thru naturalization they ask you a bunch of questions about this.
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here's why satya is better than sundar:
bald radiates heat out better, which means that his cpu runs colder.
having hair traps heat in the head, lowering cpu efficiency.
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realizing how hard it is to make something people actually want really makes you appreciate great capital allocators
the amount of money that can be spent on the wrong product with zero roi is absolutely astounding
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On composability:
Writable plugins are awesome and can create significantly more interesting player dynamics, but building onchain does not uniquely enable this.
Web2 games could have had plugins available to them, but many opted not to because players preferred to consume, not
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watching ethereum’s development is like watching a multigenerational effort for building a cathedral that’s meant to last for eternity
truly inspirational, i hope our game can live up to its shoes by being fully onchain
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obviously, the key is balancing the emissions such that the game is ~-EV for most people (offset by funness), similar to how mining provides value for running the network.
for
@primodiumgame
, v0.9 (marketplace) is a step towards that, but there is a lot lot more work to do.
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the autonomous worlds meta will have its day in the sun fairly soon.
can’t just wait for it to happen though, need to keep shipping!
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On decentralization:
Players want more updates and content. Live ops in traditional video games is a significant component for a studio. Decentralizing a game will erode this role.
Balancing and nerfing is usually done for the benefit of players too. There is merit to Vitalik’s
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this is ONE (𝗼𝗳 𝗺𝗮𝗻𝘆) of the goals for
@primodiumgame
you can actually build a true economy, which is super exciting!
(i'll get into why web2.5 wouldn't actually work in this scenario in another thread, namely around regulations and issues of trust/custody)
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@Noahpinion
yknow if they can do this in 20 years we can also turn it around within the same timeframe too, if not shorter
we just need more willpower and seriousness
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sure building a game is hard but have you tried building SaaS?
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the point is just that onchain games spawns new 'metagames' that in web2 would've been considered cheating or exploiting.
in a permissionless game, that's just playing the game. in our case, we just have to design
@primodiumgame
such that it could still be fun with these metas.
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financialization is the reason why crypto as a backend architecture exists at all.
imagine if i ran bitcoin on my computer: it says that you have 1 BTC and i have 5 BTC.
nobody would ascribe real $ value to it, because as soon as it happens, i can now say i have 50 btc
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