Kevin Moyer
@kevinjm
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Former SaaS guy now buying and building physical-world businesses. Starting with a multi-unit Smash My Trash franchise in the Bay Area.
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Joined March 2023
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18 months ago, I left my job in tech to open a trash franchise. I caught the “boring business” bug and decided franchising was a good place to start.
It’s worked out great - but MAN - I went in totally blind, and it could have been a disaster.
Here are some things I wish I
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My drivers all have company phones that stay in the trucks.
I was just made aware that ALL of my personal photos from all time (including college) are synced to these phones.
Horrifying.
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This customer gets charged ~$800 per pickup by the trash company.
We help them fit 4x the amount of stuff in each dumpster.
They save $$$$ every month by cutting pickups by 75%.
We take a split of those savings as our fee.
Win win!
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I just drove by this dumpster.
2 years ago, I wouldn’t have even noticed it.
Now, I can look at a dumpster and estimate the monthly recurring revenue it will generate for me.
This bad boy right here looks like $2,800 MRR.
Let me break that down.
I can tell by the size of the
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@thesamparr
Empire of the Summer Moon. Tells the story of the Comanche and how they shaped American history. Went from being super primitive to mastering horses and dominating everybody within a 200 year span.
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When I left a great job to buy a franchise as my “starter business”, I was focused on replacing my $200k income ASAP. Made a lot of mistakes.
One thing I got right: I picked a business where I could win with brute force effort.
I’ll explain.
All money-making ventures require
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3/8) Managing blue collar employees is a learned skill. One tactical thing that seems to work for me: Ask for advice (”What would you do if you were me?”) from every single employee, especially on stuff “above their pay grade”. This has gotten me great input, fierce buy-in, and
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Everyone has that question they answer all the time.
Mine is: why did you leave a career in tech to do a trash business?
Lots of reasons, but one pushed me over the edge:
I realized that being an employee at a tech company is a bad deal, at least for what I wanted. Which - it
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@SMBTelecomGuy
I thought I did the right thing by creating an Apple ID with my business email. But somehow that got synced up with my personal one
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This is one of our new customers.
They were getting this fluffy trash hauled 3x per week. Paying $700 for each haul.
Now, they’ll have only 1 haul per week.
We’ll save them a ton of money and split the savings.
Savings for them w/ no extra work. Recurring revenue for us.
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@thesamparr
Agree with both of yours.
Sinead O’Connor did nothing compares to you better than Prince.
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One of the most challenging parts of owning a blue collar business:
Resisting the urge to buy a pickup truck.
I - like most people - have no need to tow anything. I can’t imagine what I could possibly use the bed for.
But man my Kia Niro looks mighty lame out here. 50mpg tho.
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I’ve interviewed 40+ truck drivers in the last 2 years.
Most have NOT become good long-term employees. It’s hard.
But I’ve learned a lot about how to source, qualify, and hire outstanding front-line employees.
Here’s a random list of those learnings. 👇
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5/8) There is power in picking up the phone and calling people. Email is comfortable. Calling someone’s cell phone is uncomfortable, especially to deliver a tough message or ask for money. But it’s been a guaranteed way to stand out and move quickly.
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8/8) The world of franchising is misunderstood and overlooked, including by me when I started. It’s not just fast food. It’s also not a “business in a box” that you can run for 5 hours a week and sit back. It’s not as cool as tech or search. But there are lots of reasons to love
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1/8) It’s going to take way longer than expected to actually make money. It’s gone as well as I could have hoped, but I’m just now paying myself. Starting a business means growing. Growing consumes cash (more trucks, more territories, more employees). I only get what’s left over
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7/8) It feels unnatural to aggressively delegate, but you have to do it. As an employee, you get points for optics, so it’s good to be busy. I’ve had to shake that urge. Now, when I do something that I know I shouldn’t be doing, I record a Loom video and make someone else
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When I left my cushy W2 to open a trash business, I knew it would be hard.
That’s what everyone says about entrepreneurship: “it’s hard.”
But not enough people talk about HOW, specifically, it feels so hard.
Here’s my take on the internal mental warfare of owning a business.
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Some new followers on here, so I’ll do an intro.
Quick version: I spent 7 years as an employee in venture-backed-tech land. Decided it didn’t make sense for me. Thought about doing a search - didn’t. Opened a Smash My Trash franchise in August 2022. Got lucky in many ways and
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4/8) It’s blind leap after blind leap. I thought once I built some momentum, I could slow roll growth without much risk. It’s not like that. Growth happens in blind leaps. Each time I buy a new truck, I am betting that I can fill it without knowing that I can.
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One of the biggest surprises I've encountered in blue collar business world:
Almost every customer pays by check.
Never thought I'd have to deal with checks.
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2/8) Going in, it would have been great to know finance and accounting better. I thought “I’ll pay someone to do that.” That doesn’t work - at least not before you can afford a CFO. The owner has to own the numbers. I’ve gotten there, but I wish I had a running start.
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6/8) Move quickly MOST of the time. I pride myself on speed of execution. But when the stakes are high, I’ve had to learn (the hard way) when to move SLOWLY. Read important contracts line by line. Run background checks and reference calls before hiring. Think carefully about comp
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@ people who have run businesses for a while:
When can I expect to hear my phone ring without my heart sinking? Thx
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Have any franchise people on here looked into Buona Beef?
I’m in Wisconsin with my wife’s family this week. Have eaten here 6 days in a row. Super good!
FDD shows ~20 corp owned with good economics. No franchises yet.
Wonder if it works outside of Chicagoland.
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@shawngorham
Thanks for the perspective, Shawn. I think about this a lot… esp between 1-5am…
There’s a lot of legal nuance here, and I’ve gotten comfortable with the risk.
This approach is better for the whole system (less landfill space, less emissions, and the end customer wins). I
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I recently started writing about my first 2 years owning a small, “boring business."
For some reason, I’ve tended to focus on the hard and painful parts: the stress, the risk, and the absurd calamities I never anticipated.
For example, yesterday I posted that my drivers have
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@joshsendstweets
1) I wanted to do something on my own, and I didn’t want to compete with the literal geniuses in tech
2) I wanted to make big money and didn’t like the return profile of an employee at a venture-backed startup. Good deal for founders on a risk-adjusted basis. Good deal for
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@jcolesimpson
I’d add that you also don’t have to take on the risk and cost of diligence-ing someone else’s business.
So many things can be misrepresented or otherwise bad. A cold start isn’t easy, but you can build things your way.
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2 years in a blue collar business and this still feels like a costume
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@mhp_guy
The takeaway here is NOT - go start an insulation company.
The takeaway is - franchisors in general are highly valuable businesses that resemble SaaS in terms of licensing and recurring revenue.
But they also have an incentive to over-sell franchises to have exits like this.
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I have an employee who only speaks Spanish. I barely speak Spanish.
He single-handedly services $40k+ in monthly revenue.
We communicate 100% over text (green ones...).
Hired him in the fall when we were desperate for drivers.
He hasn't missed a shift, does a great job, fixes
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@SpencerWLayson
It's actually a hybrid of both.
We don't charge a fee per smash. We also don't calculate actual savings per month and invoice retroactively.
When we start service, we look at 12 months of data and come up with a flat monthly fee that we bill on the 1st. It's steady + recurring.
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8/8) I try not to read into someone’s interview skills. How well someone interviews is a terrible predictor of how good they are for most front-line roles. Easy to fall for the smooth-talker. Easy to overlook the shy grinder.
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In June 2014, on my first ever day of work post-college, I got the best advice of my career. Lucky timing.
I worked at a division of Kroger and was in a class of recent grads who started that same day.
Execs came into our training room. They were supposed to give advice. Lot
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@gvh41
@sweatystartup
Can vouch - in the scenario I mentioned, I let Support Shepherd know and they sourced someone else for me at no charge. She's been great. Highly recommend them.
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In December 2021, I BLINDLY bought my first franchise.
Worked out well, but I was lucky.
Here are 7 questions I’m going to ask next time around so I don’t have to get lucky again.
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Lesson learned from 2 years owning a business:
Always let the other person get the slightly better deal (employees, customers, investors, etc.)
Too many people fight over scraps.
I find the "meat left on the bone" pays off tenfold in the form of speed, harmony, & reputation.
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SO many of the service franchises I look into are not worth ANY royalty, let alone 8%+. It would be smarter to just start my own independent. And I’m not going to do that.
A franchise worth the investment needs to provide more value than the cost of the franchise fees + royalty.
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@JackSartory
Yep buying other franchisees. Attractive in 3 ways:
1) the businesses are basically identical and run on the same systems
2) the way franchises are sold often leads to high fragmentation in a system
3) you’re walled off from the outside world. In many cases, once you’re in a
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I’ve learned a lot since buying my first business 19 months ago.
Still SO much left to figure out.
Here are some things I’m still trying to decide on.
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Busy season is back in trash world.
Which means your boy is back to door-to-door selling.
These are the types of places I find myself wandering into.
I used to get so nervous about “trespassing”.
Maybe one guy ever has said “how’d you get in here?”
Walking in works.
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When a deal is stuck and I need to make something happen, I think:
“Send an email?”
“Send a text?”
“No, I shouldn’t press. Wait a day.”
And then I think about this MF and do the one thing that works every time.
IYKYK
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Shoutout to this guy on every BizBuySell pool route.
Means absolute business. Cargo shorts to hold the chemicals. Suit up top lets you know he's not fucking around. Handling matters on the phone.
I'm about to pay 13x monthly revenue for a pool route so I can be like him.
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@jcolesimpson
I’ve found that putting pressure on myself to “unplug” on vacation leads to more stress than accepting that I’m going to have calls and emails on vacation.
Where are you going in CA?
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7/8) I do reference calls and ask 2 questions.
1) How would you rate this person 1-10? The number doesn't matter.
2) What would it take to make that a 10?
I used to ask for the candidate’s weaknesses. Got non-answers. This works better. I stole it from someone but forget who.
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It took me 2 tries to hire a good VA. Luckily made all the mistakes the first time around.
First VA - fired after 3 months.
Did 2 Zoom interviews and hired her.
Wrote out some process documents. Had several calls to answer questions and fill in gaps. Had those same calls over
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I talk to a lot of searches about franchising. Pros and cons.
One thing that comes up a lot: the diligence process for buying a new franchise is relatively simple (though not easy).
I think there are 3 main things to check.
Before I go there, compare franchising to buying an
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1/8) For the first phone screen, I ask THEM to call ME at a specific time. Basic dependability is the most important quality for the job. This approach filters for that at the top of the funnel - before I spend any time with them.
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@CreREStrategy
Most companies out here don’t have overage fees. For those that do, yes, we factor that into the savings.
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Ongoing debate in my house: buying a home vs. continuing to rent.
My take: as an entrepreneur, it makes more sense for me to rent.
Why not own? Isn’t renting just throwing money away vs. building equity?
I think there are 2 small “hidden costs” of owning and 1 big one.
1)
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Pulling off a rollup seems like a bitch.
But I think there's one market where rollups make a ton of sense. I hope so, at least. Cause I’m betting my career on it.
Franchising.
1) Nearly-identical businesses under the same brand. No need to redesign or rebrand. Maybe some
Why doesn’t Tiny do roll-ups?
Imagine trying to build the next Chipotle, but in reverse via acquisition.
By sewing hundreds of independent businesses together then synergizing them.
You go out and systematically buy tiny taco stands one by one, redesign the premises, retrain
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@ShaanVP
I liked the banter format. It kept my interest longer than a typical post, and I think it's because I couldn't anticipate what was coming next.
It also gives you the writer license to pack more content into a smaller space because you're at liberty to riff and shift topics
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M&A is hard as a first-timer with no finance background.
What are some of the best resources (books, articles, podcasts, etc.) on creative deal structuring?
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@sweatystartup
Reading this as I head 2+ hours away to run my business nonstop til Thursday. I’ll stay at a Days Inn and my wife and newborn will be home without me.
I’ve learned to embrace the hard stuff. It used to feel “bad” like something was wrong. Now I realize I’m paid to solve issues.
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My business - and day to day life - changed dramatically when I found out about Support Shepherd.
My assistant, Alex, is awesome and handles all of our back office work that used to take me 2-3 hours per day. Our AR is also in way better shape.
Cool to see Nick double down
Big news:
Yesterday I acquired controlling interest in Support Shepherd for $29.7 million.
I am officially betting my career on this company.
The backstory:
In 2021 I used Support Shepherd to hire my first overseas customer service rep.
I was running my real estate (self
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@MBana72055
I have my own personal Apple ID that’s associated with my personal email.
I made a separate Apple ID with my business email. Thats the one I used to log into all the work phones. Somehow, the business and personal iCloud accounts synced, maybe on my laptop.
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This is my new go-to weeknight dinner.
Chicken thighs on top. Vegetables on bottom (tonight I went all taters).
Chicken fat drips down and helps fry the vegetables.
High-protein and as healthy as you want it to be. But tastes indulgent and there’s basically no cleanup.
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@SMB_Attorney
Cares deeply about how he's perceived by others.
Not necessarily a bad thing. But a good thing to be aware of.
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On MFM last week Shaan talked about the natural progression of focus from revenue to EBITDA to cashflow.
It reinforced something I believe about ETA.
First-timers should find a business that can thrive by converting brute force effort into revenue. Figure out the rest later.
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This is the quietest corner of the car rental center at O’Hare.
One time, I took a very stressful and painful call here. It’s seared in my mind.
The thing I was stressed about never ended up mattering.
This happens a lot.
I try to think about that whenever I’m stressed.
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@cdolan92
@AKASpencerScott
@thesamparr
If I had a spare I'd drive it to Dallas. Might take both of us to fend off the haulers there.
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I ask: I wonder if our routes could be more efficient.
And the 101 answers.
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@daviscfisher
Yep, sometimes people are able to divert/recycle almost everything and don’t pay haul fees.
Others are good about baling waste before dumping it and there’s no room left for compaction.
But those are rare.
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@rich_soupbrands
Totally depends on the hauler, the material, and the market!
My customers track the savings to the penny in Excel. They are smart and sophisticated and wouldn’t use us if there weren’t savings.
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@sweatystartup
This is why I like franchising - it’s a happy medium.
Dont have to pay up to acquire something and take on financial risk.
But also don’t have a cold start. Product market fit is figured out and the systems are in place.
Good balance of risk and reward.
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@heIpfullandlord
I rent - and if my wife will allow it - will continue to.
1) No maintenance headache/cost
2) No property taxes (tho baked into rent)
3) Biggest one: opportunity cost of home equity.
I can outearn and better control that $$ in a business that I own. If I was W2, I would own.
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@SMBfella
My smash customers would use me to haul if I decided to.
1) My drivers see the trash daily. Customer wouldn’t have to monitor the waste and call in hauls.
2) They trust me and would rather have 1 vendor than 2.
3) They wouldn’t have to deal with complaints from legacy haulers.
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In April 2020 - the beginning of COVID - I accidentally adopted a habit that set me on the path to breaking out of my W2:
Sleeping 9 hours per night.
Before, I was waking up at 5:30am. I’d work out, shower, and commute to work. I was proud of this routine! Felt “productive” to
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Business and fitness have a lot in common.
One way they’re VERY different.
In business, if it feels easy, you’re probably onto something. You’ve found some leverage.
In fitness, if it feels easy, you’re wasting your time. There is no such thing as leverage in fitness.
It’s an
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“Good question” usually means either:
I have an exact answer that I’m excited to lay down on you.
Or
I have no idea.
I’m guilty of the first one a lot.
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6/8) The JD needs to be dead simple. My early ones were long, rambling descriptions meant to be comprehensive. No one read it. Now, I keep it short and focus on the hourly pay + why the job is good (local route, home every night, no manual labor).
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Before and after smashing. People spend too much money hauling empty space!
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100%. The problem is that many guys learn how to work out in high school.
The lifting programs for hs sports are meant to turn boys into men: adding strength and size.
As we age, strength and size don’t matter as much, and can even be bad.
Cardio, flexibility, then strength.
I think squats and deadlifts are bad for you.
Best way to damage your back, shoulders, hips, knees.
I bet your MRIs show it too.
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One of the most unsettling parts of owning a business is keeping up with the government stuff.
I have to send a $1000 check to Sacramento every year in June because I'm an s-corp.
Just drop that baby in a mail box and hope it gets there or else there will be some sort of fine?
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@gvh41
I had this happen with my first VA. She was just okay, kind of underperforming. Hit me with a similar ask - her grandma was sick. I caved and paid her in advance.
That was the beginning of a pattern of more underperformance and other bad stuff like not responding. I ended up
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@dorse054
I talk to a lot of people who are in a cushy W2 and want to be an owner.
I think the issue is usually activation energy. People need a jolt to jump up a rung.
For me, it took an opportunity that I could afford to invest in with a crystal clear path to making it work.
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4/8) Overpay. I was nervous getting into this business. I heard that drivers were in short supply and turnover was brutal. I am happy to pay 20-25% above market in exchange for ton of applicants and happy employees. It’s a good trade.
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@SMBFinancingGuy
I’m brand new to Twitter/X so trying to figure this thing out! Can’t even sort through my replies on here. We’ll get there!
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@AaronHarperCEO
I got very close to making this mistake. What saved me was talking to a few existing franchisees who said - go all in, quit your job. No way it would have worked out the way it did if I tried to keep my job.
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Luck in action:
I opened a business that involves trucks and hydraulics in a place where people used to ride around in these bad boys.
My guys have outgrown that lifestyle and want a good job. They understand hydraulics and can fix things themselves.
Not how I drew it up.
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Optimize for cashflow? Or enterprise value?
My approach (for now):
Maximize cashflow PER HOUR of my time.
I think if I do that, enterprise value will take care of itself.
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@bnicolas94
Some dumpster companies do, but we calculate savings on the reduction of fixed haul fees
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@girdley
100% had the same experience with whoop. Biggest benefit was convincing me that my negative feelings weren’t because of my external circumstances. They’re usually cause of my internal state. Game changer for moving through life.
Amount of REM sleep seems to matter most for me.
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@jcolesimpson
@girdley
As a first-timer, the risk profile of opening a franchise appealed to me.
Buying an existing business = paying a multiple of earnings = financial risk.
Starting something from scratch (either bootstrapping or raising) = time risk/opportunity cost.
Franchise is in between.
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@drucarpenito
What do you think about getting into a system with a small 2-3 new territory/unit buildout?
Obviously have to balance proven and emerging to get a decent area. But this is how I approached Smash My Trash (accidentally). Wondering how repeatable that could be.
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I hit a small and slightly sad personal milestone this week.
Went on vacation, still worked, but I didn’t have to charge my laptop. Rode that thing on one charge. Small wins!
Something that works and I recommend: The Workcation. Half vacation. Half work.
I go away with the family to somewhere nice. I work, but only half-time and fully remote. Try it!
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In the summer of 2021, I committed to buying a franchise. I took a hard look at five and picked one. By 10% good diligence and 90% luck, I picked the right one. Out of the other four, 2 likely would have bankrupted me and 2 would have probably been just okay. This is only clear
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