Not previously posted on this thread - it appears on other related ones but relevant to your comment: "Evidence from experiments in mammals, from guinea pigs and rats to rhesus macaque monkeys, shows that when females are given high T in utero, their behavior [as children] is masculinized, and when males are deprived of it, their behavior is feminized [as children]. Prior to puberty, the behavior that is most affected is play type - T-exposed females play more like males. This makes perfect sense in the light of evolutionary theory. Males and females have different reproductive interests, which are served by different play styles in infancy. And research on the behavior of people who have natural differences in testosterone's actions or levels, as in 5-ARD and especially CAH, strongly suggests that humans are no exception. [...] Should we assume that humans are different from every other animal in which the relationship between T and masculinization of juvenile behavior has been observed, or is it more reasonable to assume that the human animal is subject to similar biological and evolutionary forces? [...] The conclusion seems inescapable: as best we can tell, T makes boy brains." [And its absence makes girl brains] Behavioral endocrinology is a valid science with decades of research.

@GtheOriginal @Prolotario1 Maybe I could get .00000002% of the savings.

@clarabingbong I've been thinking that Nancy Mace is dysphoric and could never find a way out of her environment and it built up this rage against those that have

So. Absent clear, objective, clinical outcomes, we are to just let those coming to the medical community for help, flounder while you, observe. Assess. For decades. Do you understand the absolute immorality of that position? How hiding behind those requirements leaves patients to collapse? And how whenever ANY research comes along to poke little holes in that rock solid blanket that is dumped on patient heads, it will be ignored.... ...because there is not ENOUGH evidence. Yet.

@NancyMace I've been thinking that Nancy Mace is dysphoric and could never find a way out of her environment and it built up this rage against those that have

I'll be polite and assume that it is just plain ignorance, rather than willful prejudice, and offer, politely, this: "Evidence from experiments in mammals, from guinea pigs and rats to rhesus macaque monkeys, shows that when females are given high T in utero, their behavior [as children] is masculinized, and when males are deprived of it, their behavior is feminized [as children]. Prior to puberty, the behavior that is most affected is play type - T-exposed females play more like males. This makes perfect sense in the light of evolutionary theory. Males and females have different reproductive interests, which are served by different play styles in infancy. And research on the behavior of people who have natural differences in testosterone's actions or levels, as in 5-ARD and especially CAH, strongly suggests that humans are no exception. [...] Should we assume that humans are different from every other animal in which the relationship between T and masculinization of juvenile behavior has been observed, or is it more reasonable to assume that the human animal is subject to similar biological and evolutionary forces? [...] The conclusion seems inescapable: as best we can tell, T makes boy brains." [And its absence makes girl brains] Behavioral endocrinology is a valid science with decades of research.

Yep. It is the best excuse for offsetting the blame for not treating someone. One of the reasons why for the last 40 years I've had no problem firing doctors that hide behind standards and 'norms' instead of addressing the actual patient in front of them. As a side note: my normal temp is 96.4. In my teens it was 94.8. In the military 95.1. Around my transition it was just under 96. When I present to a doctor with a temp of 99.0, they tell me my temp is a touch high. No. I am there because I am running A FEVER that has crossed into significance. When my back was operated on, X-ray below, they didn't know how much, if any, damage occurred to my spinal cord - I had to TELL them. There was no objective criteria. That would take just about 3 yrs to show up with the development of neuropathy. This IS a difficult area of psychology and treatment - not impossible. Arguing for long term studies and objective criteria and treatment is a 'professional excuse' to follow the guidelines, rather deal with the patient. And you STILL haven't answered the question.

@hemightkillyoub OHHHH....reading comprehension error. Gotcha.

@armouredgideon7 @MilaLovesJoe Hey, embrace the assholery. It becomes you Sir.

@ShellTerminal @missvillainess1 @HonestTruth44 @Invisible_TSW @badsophistry @HuggableHedgie it's all about the breeding pairs...

"Oh, sorry, you would have been better off if we started treatment 15 yrs ago, but thank you for helping us understand the condition that we had already listed back then." See how that doesn't seem helpful to those of us actually suffering? I get it will help clinicians be able to justify their subjective opinions more ....clinically... Pending.....

There WAS issues in the transsexual community - getting better as more therapists met and treated us, but steady, albeit slow, improvement. The transgender movement co-opted, distorted, politicized, corrupted, and eventually tried to dismiss/ignore, reject and hate 'transsexual' to the point the organization founded to provide standards of care, abandoned us completely. Two different things.

@hemightkillyoub Ah, so you didn't actually read what was posted, just wanted to express your ignorance. Thank you for your opinion.

Pelosi called it an insurrection. Omar calls it a Constitutional crisis. What they are is frightened about their corruption being stopped.

@kfvalues @ablainer9 @Sam_the_m You mean conflating with transgenderism....

Ah, then may I re-refer you to my previous comment about the understanding, lack of it, concerning gender dsyphoria for another read. When your entire reality is questioned by EVERYONE around you, you develop certain behaviors that, over time, can result in complications (maybe in some cases comorbidities) that are difficult to parse - will take some time to evaluate. However. There ARE certain characteristics that tend to be unique to us. Hence my question as to your association with the medical community dealing with gender issues....

@kfvalues @ablainer9 @Sam_the_m In a way that is objectively applicable.

@kfvalues @ablainer9 @Sam_the_m So, decades long longitudinal studies. Of a cohort that is roughly .4% of the population, geographically separated, demographically diverse, and subject to significant societal backlash.

I agree. We don't have, nor ever likely will have, an objective criteria that defines psychological abnormalities. We have to rely upon patient reporting, behavioral clues, response mechanisms, and evaluate all sets of outcomes relevant to initial conditions. I've read/listened to dozens of detrans discussions of their paths and WITHOUT exception, their initial discussions are rife with red flags: abuse, trauma, drug abuse... MAJOR huge red flags YET, therapists and doctors just shoved them along. It is why I am not frothing about the EO. It is politically expected - most transsexuals agree. However, it is MORALLY wrong in that it abandons the actual patient cohort. And, may I ask, are you involved in clinical evaluations of teens/adults involved in gender issues? If so, I have a follow-up question. If not, it doesn't mean I dismiss in ANY way your comments/positions beyond my comments upon them.

Which is....? DSM? Which part? The general part, the sociological roles/expectations part? Both? The 'neither relates to age' part? A little exasperated here....you acknowledge DSM is not good, yet, clinicians are using it to good effect? Or have I gone off the rails and lost the thread of your meaning?

What kind of research? Identifying patients during adolescence and then follow into adulthood watching the outcomes? Testing treatment protocols to diverse groups of patients? Identification of patients under as unspecified variations of diagnostic criteria? All of the above? None (others...?)