gingerBill
@TheGingerBill
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I'm a Ginger thus I have no soul. Creator of the Odin Programming Language Working with @JangaFX on EmberGen
Ginger Land
Joined May 2009
Don't wanna be here?
Send us removal request.
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Pinned Tweet
We are proud announce the brand new documentation site for all the official library collections (`core` and `vendor`): .
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"Hot" take: Most people who default to regex for a lot of things do not know how to do basic tokenization, let alone general parsing.
A basic tokenizer would a much better option that defaulting to regex everywhere, faster, and much better error handling.
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I don't think people understand how SURREAL it is for me to see things like this happen.
I started Odin just over 8 years ago heavily drunk live on Twitch. I wouldn't've been able to imagine this, let alone be using it for a job full time at a company with over 20 people.
After 4 years of teaching a computer graphics course and telling the students they can use any language they want (and not just C++), today one student finally did it: they coded the homework assignment in Odin.
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People do ask me why Odin's struct fields are ordered lik C rather than reordered to minimize padding (which is what a lot of new languages like Rust do).
This comment from Russ Cox in 2015 is a good answer as to why Go doesn't do any reordering either:
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"Cold" take: HTML5 being pushed as the "Flash replacement" made things worse in general, except for the "performance" aspects.
Flash was what people wanted when they were designing "multimedia" applications on the web. HTML5 was not what they wanted, and we all suffered for it.
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"Hot" Take: It would be preferrable if we had native graphics API per GPU vendor rather than the current mess (OpenGL, Vulkan, D3D, Metal, WebGPU, etc).
There are about as many GPU vendors nowadays as graphics APIs (Nvidia, AMD, Intel, Apple, "Mobile").
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🧵 Odin is a weird programming language to advertise/market for.
Odin is very pragmatic in terms of its design and overall philosophy. Unlike all popular languages out there, it has no "killer feature".
I've tried to designed it to solve actual problems with actual solutions.
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@zoriya_dev
For people who don't know why Odin supports multiple sized booleans is that Odin has to deal with pre-existing code.
C didn't have a bool type for a long time, so people made their own. In WIN32, it is common to see BOOL which is a typedef of int, i.e. 32-bits.
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How the heck is the Nobel Prize in Physics going to people doing dot products? Sorry, I mean "machine learning".
How is that even related to "Physics"?!
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After 2 days of work, I've got a basic prototype working. The line rendering is bad, the precision is bad, but... I can draw and even do undo/redo operations.
5 more days to go to produce a saleable product.
Make sure to catch the streams on
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I just saw a YT short from
@ThePrimeagen
about a cool macro (video link in this thread) where he uses a macro to add struct field tags in Go for json (un)marshalling.
It is indeed cool, but I wanted to show how much easier the equivalent thing is with multiple cursors.
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Why the heck are C++ iterators so bad?! Did no one ever implement a hash map before and thought "I'd like to iterate over this"? Why the heck did the `begin`/`end` nonsense have to become the standard?!
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This is something I find perplexing but I (contradictory) understand why:
People keep saying Odin is not a "general purpose" language but rather tailored for games and graphics.
Erm... games are as "general purpose" as you can possibly get. It's a form of systems programming.
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I've been saying this for a few years now but can people please stop using things like ChatGPT as a search engine?!
It's literally trained to be a Bullshitting Engine.
It is trained to given an answer that "looks correct". It has no idea if it actually is.
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Esoteric? No.
Impractical? No.
The managerial class has ruined computer science.
But Pascal in 1970 got them right, which is what I did in Odin: bit_set[Enum_Flag; u32]
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You know a data structure is good when the original paper is from 1986 and you find virtually no other resources one!
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"Hot" Take: Since I've used Sublime Text now for 13+ years, I've found that multiple-cursors has removed all of my needs for any kind of text-editor-macros. I know why people love macros but they seem to take more time to set up than doing the equivalent with multiple-cursors.
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Another reason for
@tsoding
to be "batshit scared" of me.
I don't just pop up in people's live streams, but I also pop up in people's dreams now.
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Another reason to dislike package managers.
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This is a good example of just blindly looking at big O notation can be extremely misleading.
O(2147483648) is the same as O(1) because it's just a constant, even if it is absolutely huge.
An O(N^2) algorithm can beat an O(log(N)) on if the latter's factors are large enough.
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I am considering writing an article on how Handle-based systems work and how to implement one.
A brilliant article on this is
@FlohOfWoe
's "Handles are the better pointers"
However, sometimes showing a concrete code example helps with understanding it.
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We have just added WebGPU to Odin!
import "vendor:wgpu"
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There is no such thing as a "Zero Cost Abstraction".
People saying "the cost is just compile time, compiler complexity, readability, etc"—that's still a cost,
And you may not be considering other alternative approaches which might be faster.
There is always a cost—TANSTAAFL.
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Vanilla JavaScript + Vanilla CSS >>>>>
Not even a single framework of any kind.
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The replies to this comment regarding my views on package managers are fascinating.
Very few replies watched the video but regardless I'd argue, and sorry I am going to be blunt, most of the comments are openly saying (but not realizing) they are bad programmers.
Recently I saw a good video with
@ThePrimeagen
with the creator of
@odinlang
@TheGingerBill
and
@teej_dv
talking about the issues with package managers and why that will not be part of Odin langauge.
Given that package managers can introduce security risks, licensing
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Many people may not know this but this video by Sean Barrett
@nothings
is partially the reason why I made the Odin programming language.
And I'll explain what insights it gave me in this thread🧵
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I need to write an article on the main issue I have with this but it'll probably become half a book:
Package managers for programming languages are inherently bad.
Essentially: some things should not be easier to do, and embracing the complexity of dependency hell is evil.
JavaScript programmers need to be stopped.
Only webdevs could think importing a file over internet was a good idea. No wonder the web is an absolute mess.
SERIOUSLY? "got wrong" is even thinking it was a good idea in the first place.
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This is a 23 minute video explaining that `std::vector::reserve` exists, and that `emplace_back` allows for move/ownership semantics.
I'm sorry but this is just an ENGAGEMENT BAIT video with no actual substance. This isn't going to help people learn C++.
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lol
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Mini-Rant:
Rust was not built to be a fast language, it was built to be a memory safe language.
Rust is compiled & that usually implies it will be faster than non-compiled languages. But that doesn't mean it is fast compared to other languages designed for performance.
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Sadly the state of affairs.
For languages that are trying to be evolutionary (like Odin and C3) rather than revolutionary (pretty much everything else, i.e. things with a "killer feature"), even attempts to market them is harder as they are not hypeable by their very nature.
@neogoose_btw
It's very unlikely since in the current playing field the adaption of a language depends on the amount of propaganda you are able to pump into social media.
It's best to just stay above all of this bullshit and just enjoy Recreational Programming in a decent language.
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Can people please stop designing NEW file-formats/protocols that use big endian anything?
You don't have to use big-endian just because that's "network-endian". The network doesn't care: it's all just bytes. Pretty much all machines use little-endian, so design around that.
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I have no idea if this tutorial is good or not, but I do agree that everyone should learn how to write a HTTP server.
HTTP 1.1 is a very simple protocol that everyone should understand, even if you are not in the webdev world.
the "build Your own HTTP server" challenge on
@codecraftersio
is free this month
trying something fun. who wants to build this project as well and hold each other accountable to finishing it?
challenge can be done in Go, TS, C, etc. details below!
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@Adev
@HSVSphere
@ludwigABAP
I am not even asking for "high performance" pieces of software. I am just asking "can you just not waste resources like they are going out of fashion, please?".
And no, 20 years ago people were writing software without much consideration to performance and still it's better.
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JavaScript programmers need to be stopped.
Only webdevs could think importing a file over internet was a good idea. No wonder the web is an absolute mess.
SERIOUSLY? "got wrong" is even thinking it was a good idea in the first place.
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@FreyaHolmer
Honestly, this is actually THE BEST way of doing it.
Showing that you just copy it to the Applications folder also implies that uninstalling it means you delete it from that folder.
This is one of the things OSX/macOS got correct.
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Odin code with Terry Davis as the background? Well that's something🤣
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Hot Take: None of my "Hot Takes" are actually hot nor spicy and quite mundane, but rather many people don't really have opinions of their own and just copy the opinions of others through mimetic desire.
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I don't like LSPs because when stopped I using autocomplete in IDEs a long while ago and found I was more productive without it. If you find LSPs actually make you more productive, that's great!
However, NEVER use an LSP when you are learning any language!
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Funny how on ThePrimeagen stream he asked if I paid for Sublime Text. And guess what? It expired just now (after 3 years) so I've just had to upgrade/renew it.
Well worth the money, especially since I use it everyday and use it for my job.
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With the release of the new box2d v3 (i.e. box2c), I've just added `vendor:box2d` to Odin. This means you can now trivially add 2D physics to any of your 2D needs, especially games.
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@cmuratori
Wait...
So it's not just Wirth's Law[1] in effect but also the hardware is not becoming faster as quickly because the software developers cannot utilize it well yet?!
That's a vicious feedback loop!
[1} software is getting slower more rapidly than hardware is becoming faster
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I've been thinking about why C won out over Pascal over the years. These are my general thoughts 🧵:
(1) There were way too many variants of Pascals out there, compared there being very few C variants
(2) Pascals were more verbose to type (even if you read more than write)
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🧵 I have a huge gripe when I read articles/tutorials on OpenGL: most people have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to coordinate systems and matrices.
Specifically: OpenGL is NOT right-handed; the confusion over column-major "matrices".
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odin build .
For the vast vast majority of things, you don't need a build system. Odin's foreign import system defines all of the linking aspects directly in the source code and only links with stuff that you actually use too.
for all of those that want to learn C
try zig
reasons
1. its build system is much better
2. it has testing built in
3. it will teach you everything that c will teach you other than a couple of base concepts that are not hard to learn without all the suck
it really is awesome
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For people who are misunderstanding me here. I am all for beginners resources, but a better approach would be to teach people how to implement something equivalent to `std::vector`.
When you implement it, you actually understand how to even use it properly.
This is a 23 minute video explaining that `std::vector::reserve` exists, and that `emplace_back` allows for move/ownership semantics.
I'm sorry but this is just an ENGAGEMENT BAIT video with no actual substance. This isn't going to help people learn C++.
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Odin: let's you get shit done.
Focus on the problem at hand rather than worrying about the language.
🧵 Odin is a weird programming language to advertise/market for.
Odin is very pragmatic in terms of its design and overall philosophy. Unlike all popular languages out there, it has no "killer feature".
I've tried to designed it to solve actual problems with actual solutions.
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DX is probably a psyop that makes software even worse; at expense of making the programmer think he is being more productive when in reality he is being less so because the DX is optimizing for that dopamine hit of “felt-productivity” than actual productivity and quality.
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This is one of my favourite little idioms in Odin or any language with slices (Python, Go, etc):
array[offset:][:length]
with the long form being:
array[offset : offset+length]
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I've just spent too long translating that C declaration to Odin. Even with indentation it's a "fun" to read.
We already had revolutionary AI Coding Assistants as early as 2016 actually. Just saying.
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Metal in Native Odin!!! No need for Objective-C or Swift any more it seems.
(I had to do the obligatory RGB triangle)
This means that Odin will ship out of the box with Metal, Vulkan, and OpenGL, and libraries such as GLFW and SDL!
Only D3D to go!
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"Spicy" take: To vi/vim people, I am sorry but you have spent loads of time to learn an editor that isn't any more productive than something like Sublime Text which takes exponentially less time to learn since its shortcuts are a superset of what you already know.
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Colour Palette and Different Brush Modes (Pencil, Pressure Sensitive, and Lines)
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Thank you very much for having me on the stream,
@ThePrimeagen
and
@teej_dv
.
It was a very fun stream, and the Top Shelf Q&A in the Discord Server was wonderful too.
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However admitting you cannot program without one or saying you are 10x less productive when you don't have one is admitting:
you cannot actually program and just download random stuff and bodge it together until it "works" without actually understanding it.
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I do dislike people (incorrectly) quoting Knuth about "premature optimization". I think a much better variation on the phrase for a different thing is much more applicable in virtually all cases:
Premature generalization is the root of all evil.
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Procedures operating on structs is Object "Oriented" Programming?
Now that's a take which literally makes the term OOP meaningless.
Where is the encapsulation? Data abstraction? Polymorphism? Composition? Inheritance? SOLID?
Guys like this will complain forever about oo programming and then write a shitload of C functions that all start with a struct pointer thay they operate on
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🧵I want to clarify my position on "Undefined Behaviour" (UB) in programming languages and why
@odinlang
will not have any UB. It's a pretty simple position: the specification for the language will states who defines what, and then that thing defines it. 1/7
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@Hasen_Judi
They want a functional language rather an imperative procedural one.
But if that call is only used once, that inline switch is clearer to read too. Why make the user jump around the code?
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Amazing to see people are now teaching gamedev with Odin+Raylib. Always a pleasure to see.
120 programmers signed up to the free Odin Raylib course in the past few days
I hope you are all enjoying it thus far
Get it:
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Windows 11 is so great that having installed Python, adding it to the path, and then trying to run it from cmd.exe, it tells me to download it from the Microsoft Store instead...
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The Odin Discord has reached over 5000 members! Thank you to all who have joined, contributed, and made our community worthwhile!
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Thank you very much for having on the stream,
@ThePrimeagen
, it was absolute pleasure and very fun.
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Semantic Versioning is a pipe dream.
It virtually never works in practice because people depend on bugs, and authors rarely adhere to the versioning scheme correctly in practice.
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This isn't the reason why `defer` is function-exit in Go. It's literally because Go has a form of exceptions.
The real reason is that Go allows for `recover` on `panic`, which means it needs someway of calling all of the `defer`s correctly.
P.S. scope-exit `defer` is superior
It didn't make sense to me initially either, as variables in Go are block scoped.
But when you actually think about it, function-scoped defer is a natural result of not having RAII or if's as expressions (either one works in preventing this!). Let me demonstrate:
file :=
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I guess I've "made it on Twitter" because I've been informed that there is an account trying to impersonate me.
My Twitter account has always been
@TheGingerBill
and the only account I have ever used.
If you see any other account, they are all fraudulent.
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Brand New Odin Release!
Chock full of fixes, improvements, and new packages!
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I'll be having a chat with
@ThePrimeagen
this Thursday @ 10am PT / 6pm BST, live on Twitch!
I hope to see you there in the chat 😎
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In my fork of the RadDebugger, I've added support for two View Rules: `slice` to view slice-like data structs (I cover most cases that people would have), and `odin_map`.
`odin_map` is for viewing a `map` from Odin.
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I'm not even sure why the Rust Foundation made this decision. It's absolute pure insanity.
For Odin, do whatever you want with it. The compiler has the BSD 3-clause licence for this reason! It's also why I made Odin; I wanted the freedom of choice of language to do what I want!
honestly, i don't know what to do with this rust foundation business...
they really have made me lose a lot of faith in them
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This is the BEST PR I have ever seen (at least for Odin). The amount of time that has gone into this, let alone the code itself, is impressive and honourable.
It's got GIFs, tables, detailed explanation to the rationale, modifications, and so much more.
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Hot Take: Duck Typing should be Considered Harmful.
Structural typing is a much better option, if you like that kind of thing, in statically typed languages.
Relying on duck typing _seems_ like a good idea in dynamically typed languages, but I still dislike it that even there.
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For some reason, I am asking Twitter for names for a 2D framework geared towards the web (and other platforms).
I originally called it gordon2d because I aim to have a Flash replacement. I am currently naming it crow2d but "crow" is not the best.
What should I name it?
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I've changed my mind on automatic code formatters over the years.
I used to like them because I "believed" they reduced my mental overload of doing the formatting.
Then changed my view to "enforce _a style_ regardless of whether I like it or not".
Now I find them insulting.
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FUCKING FINALLY!
Apple has a public futex API!!!!
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C++ is literally the of Programming languages.
You can do ANYTHING with C++—the only limit is yourself! The infinite is possible with C++.
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To quote what I said earlier:
Premature generalisation is the root of all evil.
This is what I mean. This is someone who made an extremely generic thing, and I bet it wasn't even needed ever.
Anyone who does this should be fired out of a generic proverbial cannon.
if you committed this to a codebase i worked in, i would do everything in my power to replace this with a couple asserts and see to it you leave my team
please for the future you do not commit code you don't understand
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This month's release is a BIG ONE.
Loads of compiler and package improvements, but also probably the last "feature" to be added to Odin: `bit_field`.
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I've been asked if Odin will ever have an "automagical C header importer", to which I answer: no.
The "feature" is a gimmick and is not useful in practice, as you will end up wrapping that automagical code and thus worse than writing the bindings directly or using a generator.
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@Adev
@HSVSphere
@ludwigABAP
And that mentality is the reason why software is crap nowadays. Why software from 20 years ago which had the same amount (if not better) functionality but ran even faster on the old hardware than current software runs on current hardware.
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Well that Uni course was still wrong.
1 singleton is equal to 2240 singlepounds.
1 singletonne is equal to 1000 singlekilograms.
We should abolish these OOP courses at University! They cannot even teach singlemetrology correctly.
The only thing I remember from my uni OOP course is that 1 singleton is equal to 1000 singlekilograms
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The end frame of this evening's stream.
It was a very fun stream! I made a card game that had a good mix of randomness and skill to it.
Stay tuned for the recording to be uploaded to YouTube!
More random game dev? I wonder what type of game this one will be!
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This was clearly a spicier than I thought.
If you like Vi/Vim, great!—but it's not for me (I do know how to use it). If people are honest, it does take a lot longer to learn than other editors; doesn't make you any more productive (maybe less so) but they will say it is "fun".
"Spicy" take: To vi/vim people, I am sorry but you have spent loads of time to learn an editor that isn't any more productive than something like Sublime Text which takes exponentially less time to learn since its shortcuts are a superset of what you already know.
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If you don't know how to do a removal of a node from a singly linked list like this, you don't understand pointers well enough (with explicit derefs to be clearer)
p := &list
for p^ != node { p = &p^^.next }
p^ = node^.next
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Well I guess there is a "Ginger Pilled" meme now...
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