Jim May
@jimmayjr
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Rocket Scientist Extraordinaire Apparently I need to say this is a personal account
Houston, TX
Joined May 2009
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1/ Apparently a lot of people didn't actually read the news article which inspired these sort of comments and was was written by someone not affiliated with the program nor the actual flight test.
There is a possibility that Boeing will have to ask
#SpaceX
to get the two Starliner astronauts back from the International Space Station. That would be quite embarrassing for Boeing.
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@servomechanica
@transsonicgirl
@joebarnard
There is a reason NASA doesn't ask for random internet user
#324
's input for return readiness reviews and instead polls designated experts who actually have, understand, and listen to detailed factual flight information.
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Space Twitter at its finest 😁
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Maybe if the same question didn't get asked 9 times straight at every press conference they would be more useful than the updates being put out in text... Also avoids the blatant mischaracterizations of everything the PMs say.
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Space world:
Transphobic comments, and any other hateful speech, is not cool period, definitely not cool in space threads, and triply not cool in any thread I'm in. I will report and block every single one of you.
Space is for everyone.
How do you draw a pride flag? 🤔
With SCIENCE!
This flag is a composite of NASA imagery of phenomena from Earth and far, far beyond it. Details below ⬇️
Credit: Rachel Lense
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Q: "Why hasn't Starliner been approved for nominal return yet?!? Are you telling me they are 'stranded' on ISS?"
A: Because they haven't scheduled the review for it yet. Every crew for every flight is 'stranded' until these reviews are scheduled.
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Please say it louder for the people in the back. Loudest for the people in the front.
They are not lost in space.
They are not stuck in space.
They are not stranded in space.
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2/ And this article also contains quoted opinions from a person who hasn't been affiliated with the program since CDR over a decade ago (consultant 2009-2014) which was before CCP contracts were awarded nor are they affiliated with this flight test.......
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3/ And the claim in the comment is also essentially refuted elsewhere in this exact same article.
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4/ Here's an additional somewhat erroneous claim ("without a hitch") by the article's author because...
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@18Enclave
@transsonicgirl
@servomechanica
@joebarnard
Should I do that for the next mission? I need someone to Photoshop it for me so I'll know how good it'll look first.
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5/ ...post-flight analysis of Dragon's heat shield revealed higher than expected erosion at four points where the capsule bolts to the trunk of the vehicle using tension ties. It was noted that this anomaly was not seen during the Demo-1 mission.
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@transsonicgirl
@servomechanica
@joebarnard
Want to talk factual, contextually relevant, and data-driven space stuff, let's do it.
Hate speech is not part of that.
Space world:
Transphobic comments, and any other hateful speech, is not cool period, definitely not cool in space threads, and triply not cool in any thread I'm in. I will report and block every single one of you.
Space is for everyone.
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Really excited to interview
@vgcerf
at
#MarsInnovationForum
tomorrow about radio/laser communications and other enablers for humans to explore deep space!
#HumansToMars
T-9 days until the Mars Innovation Forum!
Our panels include speakers in the industry like
@vgcerf
VP of
@Google
, Beth Mund of
@CasualSpace1
and
@marsjoe
of
@AerojetRdyne
& MANY more!✨
🪐Register today for the next chapter in our pursuit of
#HumansToMars
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@Devintcotter
@Carbon_Flight
Or maybe, you know, listen to NASA when they have already said it.
NASA CCP Program Manager: "I want to make it very clear that Butch and Suni are not stranded in space. Our plan is to return them on Starliner."
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@servomechanica
@transsonicgirl
@joebarnard
Practically instantaneous internet connections and unfettered access to and anonymous identities on social media are both a blessing and a curse.
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Q: When will they schedule it?!? When will they be approved for return?
A: There is a program document available to the public where you can read this whole process and expected timeline.
Everyone, for the love of space, please read this document:
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12/ The response from NASA:
Steve Stich, NASA: "Obviously we wouldn't say Starliner is safe to bring a crew home in an emergency if we didn't feel confident in the vehicle's capability. ...
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6/ But back to the claim from the OP - There was an attempt to back it up with a cherry-picked quote from the CNN article by the aforementioned consultant and is really only valid within the context where there is also the possibility that a...
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7/ ...critical flaw could be found in the Crew Dragon design or an issue arises during its missions which would require an alternate method of return for the crew that flew up on Dragon. This context is a major factor in the NASA's reasoning for wanting...
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@theJordanNoone
This test was to determine if any thrusters were firing at less than 100%, which was seen when hot firing some earlier in the flight. Long duration / high duty cycle tests were performed at White Sands. Results will be compared between the two and previous flight data.
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I really need to better remember that I followed this account. These posts keep scaring the crap out of me before I reread the username.
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8/ ...two independent end-to-end service designs and providers. But OP's claim in no way represents the reality of the current plan for the remainder of the CFT mission nor with what was provided by NASA and Boeing during the press conference on June 18th and elsewhere.
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Q: Why haven't they scheduled it yet!?!
A: Because they aren't ready to leave yet. They'd like to do more testing still before leaving.
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15/ And the response to the follow-up question:
Steve Stich, NASA: So far we don't see any scenario where Starliner is not going to be able to bring Butch and Suni home. We really want to work through the remainder of the data. ...
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10/ Kristin Fisher, CNN: "Steve, just want to be really clear here, you said that Starliner was cleared to come home in an emergency, but would it be cleared, now, to come home with a crew?...
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21/ ...the go/no-go polling which will occur shortly before undocking and is scheduled at that specific spot in the mission timeline after all other planned analysis, in-flight issue analysis, and several program management and readiness reviews have...
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@theJordanNoone
Peak thrust means the force value was measured to be 100% of the designed thrust, where degraded thruster performance was not always at 100%. It doesn't take a throttleable thruster to have differences in force output.
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@SpoxSpace
Starliner does have some export controlled displays. Also prefer not to have some IP visible.
You can see some of the displays from recordings during public tours and a duplicated one shown on the board in Starliner MCC.
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@KenKirtland17
Pretty sure Stich originally gave the date as something like "as soon as [this] Friday". Making agency review PPTs from huge amounts of test data and updating ops products isn't trivial / something to rush. They kind of described it more like they'll have the review when ready.
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12/ ...We're taking a little bit of extra time to work through what we've seen and make sure we have all the plans in place to to bring the crew home in a in a nominal situation for the end of mission. So we're just taking a little more extra time to review all the data and...
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13/ ...also learn as much as we can while we have this service module in orbit."
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27/ ...experience issues during ground testing and missions which were addressed both mid-mission while on orbit and in preparation for later flights to get to where Crew Dragon is performing today.
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@IEatHydrazine
@transsonicgirl
@servomechanica
@joebarnard
Hey now, this can be a good chance to have a detailed industry / ops discussion with those involved that most people don't get very often.
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23/ I've also seen comments from many spaceflight "enthusiasts" which try to compare Starliner's development and where the vehicle is in developmental testing now to where Crew Dragon is now and tend to conveniently omit the fact that there was a 9 year gap between...
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9/ Here is a link to the direct question from CNN's Kristin Fisher during the press conference that is related to the claim and the article:
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24/ ...Cargo Dragon 1's first flight (COTS Demo Flight 1) and Starliner OFT. During that time frame and after, there were many issues experienced during ground tests, flight tests, and contract flights in the overall Dragon system providing end-to-end mission services, which...
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@KenKirtland17
@AstroSkeptic
They mentioned many times that from the current data they have, they don't really see any issues that would prevent clearance from that review. But given that they have the time, any data they want to use for future missions can and will go into that review as well.
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20/ ...assumptions made around that being because the vehicle is unsafe and NASA isn't confident in Starliner. There is a reason Steve Stich doesn't explicitly say they are ready to return the crew right now - and that is because readiness is not official until...
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30/ ...our third flight still learning. I'm an engineer - I like to learn and I think our team likes to learn - and you know I would not characterize it as frustration, would characterize it as learning."
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11/ Like is this a situation that's actively being discussed whether or not Starliner is safe, right now, to bring a crew home?"
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19/ I've seen many people on <insert popular social media platforms here> make comments about their "concerns" regarding Starliner and NASA not explicitly and immediately stating they are ready, right now, to bring the CFT crew home and then follow up with...
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17/ ...do some similar maneuvers and so that's just taking some time to pull all that data and make sure we understand the thruster performance. So we're we're taking it one step at a time looking through all the data and when we close these things out,...
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14/ Then a follow-up question:
Kristin Fisher, CNN: "So is there any chance that these leaks and thruster issues could lead to a situation where Starliner can't bring Butch and Suni home?"
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16/ ...When we talk about looking at the the thruster pulses for the entire flight, for example, some of these thrusters have fired a thousand times. So we want to go back and compare the data all the way across the flight for all the different regimes where we're going to...
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@Devintcotter
@Carbon_Flight
Boeing Starliner Program Manager: "I'm going to repeat the same thing that Steve said, we're not stuck on ISS, the crew is not in any danger, and there's no increased risk when we decide to bring Suni and Butch back to earth."
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@KenKirtland17
@AstroSkeptic
They will trigger the red-orange box when they pick a date that they want to come home. A technical rationale, as done for any flight, goes into that review. Only then is clearance official.
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29/ ..."I step back and look at Dragon and SpaceX and they were able to learn a lot about flying in space with their Cargo Program ahead of Demo-2. You know they had many cargo flights they flew to learn and develop their system and here we are now on...
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@Afterthought_01
@DrChrisCombs
@futurism
Stop trying, that question doesn't deserve an answer. It's not something the industry speculates on.
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26/ It's important also to keep in mind that Crew Dragon, which may look externally like a completely different design to Dragon 1, actually does retain many of the same subsystems and internal design elements from Dragon 1 and some of these subystems did...
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I know this wasn't originally directed at breaking space news, but man, it should really apply to space news too.
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Thanks
@Erdayastronaut
for showing the world the every day astronaut training we're doing right now in Houston. I'll gladly be your copilot again any day!
What’s it like to go inside the
@Boeing
CST-100
#starliner
? Well I learned how to fly one of America’s next spaceships that will be launching
@NASA
astronauts next year!!!
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@SpaceKate
Unfortunately, they usually start with something like "I thought NASA was shut down" and then as me to explain what NASA is actually doing now that they know it isn't.
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31/ For comparison, a non-exhaustive list of Dragon anomalies, both minor and major:
- Dragon 1 -
1. COTS Demo Flight 2: Failure of the LIDAR system to maintain tracking during causing two non-planned holds during the docking approach.
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@KenKirtland17
That's exactly how it works in the program requirements. Nominal return clearance comes after the agency review for both test and post-cert flights. They said that too, although not as plainly.
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@SpaceAbhi
I don't want this config swap to be mischaracterized. The designed use of this vehicle is to always have crew w/ multiple options for fault fallbacks. If needed they would replace crew fallback w/ an automated one due to time criticality of breakout.
@SpaceAbhi
There are a few specific cases where they want the crew to have an option for a say and not be immediately passed over. At the briefing this was identified as undocking breakout that they'd want to immediately happen and have the crew perform it.
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@KenKirtland17
I imagine they'll have another press conference or update post in the next few days with more info. Not gonna speculate on anything else because they've been literal and truthful all along so far.
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25/ ...includes both Dragon 1, Dragon 2, and the Falcon 9 launch vehicle.
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77/ ...
- But is calling a Starliner mission that has any issue or anomaly a failure, comparing it to SpaceX having "flawless" missions, then furiously broadcasting statements like this to every <insert popular social media platforms here> even a remotely rational thing to do?...
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@DJSnM
@DavidAChilton
Centerline camera isn't required for docking, it can be performed solely with the VESTA cameras. It was added later in the program as more of a nice to have.
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@DJSnM
@DavidAChilton
But since it's now onboard and completely independent of the rest of the avionics systems, it was certified as a contingency display for docking in an emergency if the crew absolutely needs to dock.
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28/ NASA's Steve Stich reiterated this from a high-level during the press conference as well, noting the similar learning by SpaceX starting from Cargo Dragon 1, when responding to a question which asked if the issues were frustrating for NASA: ...
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1/ Welp, guess who's back with another way too long space thread? On today's episode of futile attempts to reign in space twitter claims (embedded below), we'll cover dev styles, contract awards that might more comparable than you thought, and more!
@T30E1
@kogavfx
@culpable_mink
1/ Wow, okay, there's a lot to break down in what you just said.
Being a bit pedantic here, Starliner is literally flying right now. But it's fair argument to describe this more as SpaceX is many flights ahead.
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33/ ...whether or not they were concurrent or separate anomalies. For reference, Dragon doesn't use radiation hardened computers that most other spacecraft do, but attempt to make up for it with additional redundancy.
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@DJSnM
@DavidAChilton
They can even pull up the VESTA IR cameras on the console multifuction displays if they want to. Although they primarily use the visible spectrum narrow field camera when further away and wide field when closer.
#Starliner
’s innovative navigation and docking system called the Vision-based, Electro-Optical Sensor Tracking Assembly, or VESTA, acts as the “eyes” of the spacecraft on orbit, determining the location and orientation of the vehicle relative to the stars around it.
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@Devintcotter
@Carbon_Flight
I'm not sure why Carbon Flight would need to say that to NASA, he's literally one of the NASA Flight Directors for Starliner on this mission, I think he would know.
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@Devintcotter
@Carbon_Flight
Or maybe just listen to them when they say it in the briefings. The rest of what they say are technical details and if people don't understand the technical details, then they should get clarifications instead of making assumptions.
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78/ ... NO! And neither is blatantly ignoring the statements to the contrary from the NASA Commercial Crew Program manager. And neither is speculating on the thoughts and feelings of NASA Astronauts assigned to Starliner missions.
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80/ ..it's an immediate flag for anyone actually knowledgeable about the industry to immediately disengage from any rational discourse about the matter with them.
And yes I know this diatribe thread is extremely hypocritical^
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@Devintcotter
@Carbon_Flight
NASA CCP Program Manager: "I want to make it real clear that we're not in any rush to come home."
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@BellikOzan
@cnewton_ky
7/ The plan was to always have crew on every flight post-OFT-2, so an unresponsive crew would already be one fault deep into a fault chain and they wanted a human to be in charge of this one thing specifically when crew are onboard.
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32/
2. CRS-1: While docked to ISS, a suspected radiaton hit shut down 1 of 3 flight computers. Engineers also believe radiation shut down 1 of 3 GPS units, a propulsion computer, and an ethernet switch during the flight. It was unclear from reading sources of these events...
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@BellikOzan
@cnewton_ky
8/ They are being asked to re-add the automated response in lieu of crew being onboard for this one specific safety critical use case
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@SpaceKate
I don't really understand how many people are so unaware of NASA and all the things they do, but being so embedded in the industry, I must see things through knowledge goggles that they don't have.
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76/ So, to put this all in perspective:
- Have there been issues during Starliner development? Yes.
- Is there valid criticism of the program? Sure.
- Have _all_ of the SpaceX flights with Dragon-specific anomalies been ultimately deemed successes? Yes.
...
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@theJordanNoone
When looking at this and previous flights for Starliner, or for other vehicles, not all thrusters which have been seen to have performance degradation go back to 100% later. This would be a final check for that data point.
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79/ And every time someone proudly p̶r̶o̶c̶l̶a̶i̶m̶s̶ speculates for NASA or Boeing that "they don't know" <something demonstrably false or wildly opinionated> about the future progress of Starliner missions, ...
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34/
3. CRS-1: A cargo freezer and three cabin coolant pumps lost power some time after splashdown due to suspected sea water leakage into electrical boxes. The freezer's setpoint was -139°F, but was discovered by the recovery team to be -85°F.
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@theJordanNoone
@Rebexster
@BoeingSpace
@Space_Station
@NASA_Johnson
Yes, which is what was tested at White Sands, as already discussed at the press briefing 2 days ago. Doing that on station would start to affect its orbit.
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50/
14. Crew-2: 1 of 4 parachutes experienced delayed opening during deployment for landing and took about a minute longer than expected to inflate.
15. Inspiration-4: Malfunction of the on-board toilet.
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44/
9. In-Flight Abort Test: Spacecraft assigned for this mission destroyed by an internal explosion during static fire testing of the abort thrusters at the LZ-1 facility located on CCSFS, just under 2 months after returning from the Demo-1 mission. A small amount of...
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35/
4. CRS-2: Failure of the propulsion system to pressurize 3 of the 4 Draco thruster pods causing Dragon to go into Passive Abort Mode early in the mission where it stopped executing any more orbital operations. This occurred before solar array deployment and...
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@YETIsix9ine
@AJamesMcCarthy
@blueknight0055
@ajtourville
So technically, NASA is operating the spacecraft (command authority goes through NASA FOD), but only as subcontractors to Boeing. The NASA Commercial Crew Program does not operate the vehicle, Boeing is responsible, but has FOD performing those functions on their behalf.
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