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Unraveled Faith
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Unlikely Apologist - Truth Seeker - Follower of Christ. Father, Grandfather, Husband and Worshiper!
Canada
Joined April 2011
Well done @darwintojesus
๐๐ซ๐ ๐๐๐ซ๐ฅ๐ฒ ๐๐ก๐ซ๐ข๐ฌ๐ญ๐ข๐๐ง ๐๐ซ๐ข๐ญ๐ข๐ง๐ ๐ฌ ๐๐ฏ๐ข๐๐๐ง๐๐ ๐๐จ๐ซ ๐๐ก๐ซ๐ข๐ฌ๐ญ๐ข๐๐ง๐ข๐ญ๐ฒ? ๐น๐๐๐๐๐๐๐ ๐๐๐๐๐๐๐ ๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐ ๐๐ ๐
๐๐๐๐๐๐ ๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐ ๐๐๐๐
๐๐๐๐ ๐๐๐ ๐ช๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐ Part Two: 1/2 **My Initial Claim** 2. Early Christian Writings: The New Testament documents are early, well-attested, and numerous compared to other ancient texts. Manuscript evidence supports their reliability. โขโขโขโขLogistrixโs Responseโขโขโขโข This point is extremely vague so Iโm not sure I can offer much of a rebuttal. I will say that the scholarly consensus for dating seems to be not super earlyโฆ Pauline epistles were written in the 15-30 years after Jesusโ death. These have very little in the way of details of Jesusโ life and recounts basically nothing of what Jesus ever said. Mark was written in early 60s (~30 years post-death) and is the least detail-rich and has the leastโฆ impressiveโฆ Jesus Matt was written after Mark as much of Mark is copied into Matt. Most put Matt in 70+ (~40 years post-death) due to the more developed christology and reference to the destruction of Jerusalem. Luke was written between 80 and 110 CE (50-80 years post-death) and it seems to have been heavily edited well into the 2nd century. Christology and details are increased quite a bit in Luke from prior gospels John was written between 90 and 110 CE (60-80 years post-death). John has by far the highest christology and a superman-style Jesus. This dramatic increasing of the Jesusโ details, christology, and impressiveness suggests to me that there is ongoing legendary development and filling-in of details. **my response** Logistrixโs response shows he doesnโt understand what it means for a manuscript to be well-attested so first Iโll explain what that means. Imagine if we had only one surviving copy of The Iliad by Homer, and this copy was written almost 2,000 years after the original. In this scenario, it would be almost impossible to verify whether what we were reading was what Homer actually wrote. In reality, The Iliad is well-attested, with about 1,900 manuscripts. That means we can compare copies, identify variations, and reconstruct the original text with reasonable accuracy. However, the earliest complete version we have still* dates to nearly 1,800 years after Homerโs time. This means that for nearly two thousand years, errors, alterations, or even fabrications could have crept inโyet historians STILL consider The Iliad well-attested. Now consider a poorly attested work like what we see with the Roman historian Sallust. Here we have only a handful of manuscripts, most of which are fragments and copied many centuries after he wrote them. Because of this, scholars sometimes have to guess at missing sections and rely on secondary sources. The poor attestation of these works make it harder to be sure about what was originally written by Sallust. So why does this matter for Christianity? Because the New Testament is one of the best-attested works of antiquity. Unlike The Iliad or Sallustโs writings, we have over 5,800 Greek manuscripts. Some of these manuscripts are dated within 50-100 years of the original writings. That means we have an unprecedented ability to cross-check copies and verify what was originally written, making the New Testament far more reliable than most other ancient texts. This is crucial because Christianity is based on historical claims. If the New Testament had poor attestationโlike only a handful of copies written many centuries laterโwe wouldnโt have good reason to trust its reliability. But because we have thousands of manuscripts, written far closer to the originals than nearly any other ancient text, we can reconstruct the original writings with extraordinary accuracy. This means that the central historical claims of Christianity are preserved with far greater confidence than virtually any other events of antiquity.
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This
We often say that the early Christian martyrs were willing to die for their beliefs, which proves they werenโt lying. Thatโs trueโฆ but I donโt think it goes far enough. Why were they SO bold? Most people, even if they hold something dear, would deny it to avoid torture and death. But the early Christians didnโt just refuse to recantโthey faced death with joy. What explains that* kind of boldness? The best answer isnโt just that they believed in Christโitโs that they had seen Him conquer death with their own eyes. They werenโt dying for a philosophy or a religious ideal, they were dying because they knew, beyond all doubt, that death had been defeated. Christ had also promised them a resurrection, and they had no reason to think He was wrongโbecause He had already walked out of the grave Himself.
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@Protestia Emotionalism fanned by parents. Not helpful in terms of growing in faith for the long term. Actually it opens kids up to New Age or New Thought teachings as well.
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@brianlilley Noticingโฆ โThe Premiersโ did this. Not the PM or current governing body. Itโs sad actually.
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