Gunsen History
@gunsen_history
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Amateur Japanese arms & armour researcher - 日本の甲冑と武器研究者 Latest work: Tōgoku no Bugu (東国の武具), Study notes
Joined January 2022
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After few months of writing, I am proud to share my 2nd version of my study notes, Tōgoku no Bugu (東国の武具): Study notes, An essay on the gear of a Samurai from the Tōgoku regions during the Tenshō era.
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Recently I saw a video discussing the efficacy of a katana (used as a proxy for Japanese swords) on armor, in particular medieval armor.
I think it can be interesting to discuss how swords were used against armor in a Japanese context.
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Nanban gusoku (南蛮具足): an interesting case of cross cultural exchange in East Asia. It is a well known fact that Japanese Samurai of the late 16th century adopted and modified European breastplate and helmets into their own armor system.
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On the development of tools in their own context - Japanese swords and discguards.
This is a post that will address one of the lastest video on the topic, in which we see why it is important to consider how discguards should be used before evaluating their functionality.
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I want to talk about this, but I want to make a short premise before diving into this video, since there is a lot to talk about.
This is Part 1.
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Not many people are aware, but as a matter of fact, Japanese swords length, as well as other details such as tsuba and fittings, were heavily regulated in the Edo period by a set of different laws. It is important to be aware of these laws and their impact on nihontō design.
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Moreover, the grip is just wrong. Not surprisingly, you get hit. So the position of the blade is wrong, the stance is wrong, the grip is wrong. Not a fine test to prove a point.
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Seven Samurai armors are something else. Despite being from the 1950s, the look of the gear is much more authentic than all the modern representations I have seen in media.
The movie itself is also a masterpiece.
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I am happy to share my latest work on Japanese Arms&Armor during the mid Tenshō era! This is my most serious project so far and it focuses on the gear of eastern Samurai during the 1575-85.
It took several hours of writing and it summarize my latest years of research.
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A funny related trivia on Japanese arms and armor that happened during the second Mongol Invasion of Japan. Takezaki Suenaga(竹崎季長) was in a hurry to get into raiding boats, and he forgot his helmet. As a result, he had to improvise by wearing his suneate (greave) on his head
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I also loved that in this trike the blade obviously slided on the guy's thumb but they ignored it and continue as if it was nothing. I am quite sure you should not handle the guard that close for the very same reasons.
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There are many ways to handle incoming strike, but you usually do not receive them with your fist like that in Kenjutsu.
Much action is deflect away with the shinogi or ridge of the blade, and there are stances that are used to efficiently deflect the blade(shared with HEMA).
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One of the most popular misconception about Japanese Arms&Armors that is constantly being repeated all over as an endless mantra, is the quality of the steel and iron used, in the context of pre-industrial technology. This is true especially among western sword "enthusiasts"
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If you want to have a take on Japanese swords, you are free to have one! But maybe start to understand the principles, its use, its cultural context, and it will definitely yield a better results. Given the amount of source on the topic, I am impressed none of it was used.
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With that in mind, now on the test. The way this was carried is not in line with kenjutsu regular practice, and it is just meant to show how a discguard falls shortly when it is NOT used how it should be.
You simply do NOT parry like this with a Japanese blade.
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As shown in this video, that is what happens if you are holding the tsuba that close to the base. You get hit!
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And as a final word, indeed Japanese people managed to invent their own crossguard.
Maybe, I am just saying, there were reasons why they did not used them in swords for over 500 years.
In Japan, crossguards were widely used and known in polearms, particularly spears. These are known as kagi yari (鍵槍) and they appear in the documents of the Sengoku period. I think it is telling that we do not see the same guards on sword of the period.
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頑張って和訳してみました。 とても貴重で正確な表現だと思う。カッコ内は、わかりやすくするために私が付け加えたものである。
Nicolao Lancillotto information on Japan - Goa, 1548.
A detailed account from early Portuguese sources on the way Japanese warriors of the Tenbun era fought and armed themselves.
"5. It is said that in Japan there are mail skirts, breastplates, helmets, gorgets, and bracers
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First point to consider, there are larger tsuba. If that is a preference of concern, there are tsuba with 10+ cm of diameter, which is a considerable increase from your average 6-8 cm tsuba.
Here some examples from the larger Muromachi ones compared with Edo period ones.
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Cross guard and discguards are two different tools for similar purposes. But extrapolating one from its own context and making assumptions and speculations to push one view is quite franlky wrong.
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I have been putting a lot efforts in my latest posts about addressing some misconceptions Shadiversity have been spreading through his yt videos. I don't want to have it as a regular practice, for the sake of my own mental health. But I want to make few notes on his narrative
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This is a general overview on the functionality of discguards in a broader East Asian context, although I will focus on Japanese swords as it was the topic of the videos.
There are reasons why such guards were used for more than 1000 years in swords design.
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Hahaha not even 24 hours, as I expected.
I am also aware the sole fact that someone talked positively about one of the few (if not the only) historical methods of swordmaking that has been preserved "somewhat" unchanged through multiple generations and is still kept alive will cause some outrage in the known suspects.
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From artwork of the period, look at the size difference in relationship to the hand. Especially with longer blades in the longsword range.
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Another point about the effectiveness of the tsuba, is the same take about rotating the crossguard. If you tilt the sword at an angle, and use the Katana curvature as well, you could use the "bounce effect" in your favor.
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Not to mention, crossguard in Japanese swordmanship will not prove to be just beneficial and will come with their own downside.
Not having the allignment of the quillons with the shinogi and getting caught in clothes are objective problems.
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The "test" in question, in my opinion, was poorly done and showed a biased view in the context of "tsuba vs crossguard". There are many crossguards designs, and different tsuba sizes as well.
The tsuba used is a standard for a katana replica, which is not that big.
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However, in the famous Zohyō monogatari we read of wakizashi equipped with tsuba as big as "the lid of a kettle"
雑兵物語だと釜の蓋の様な大鍔が 脇差に装備されている例も有るが 現実に有ったとしても軽量化の為に 透かしの大きい物なのかだが 通常サイズの刀にこうした物が装備された例は有るのかだが
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Short thread on fukigaeshi (吹返) evolution! These are the famous and iconic "helmet's ears" found on Japanese Kabuto (兜). They changed through time to address the different trends in warfare.
Let's start with those found in the late Heian and early Kamakura periods.
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During WW1, many armies of the period utilized body armor to minimize the damage of shrapnels and firearms. These mainly included helmets and cuirasses, with many experimental designs that never saw the battlefield.
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Just a point of clarification on the "tsuba vs crossguards" posts I did few days ago, without calling out anyone in, since I genuinely do not like it, it is not my style and it will avoided in the future.
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Given the reputation that Japanese swords (日本刀) have among European history and HEMA enthusiasts these days, I decided to make a thread on period Western sources of various types, from the 16th to the 19th century, to show what period European had to say on these swords🧵.
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Have you ever heard of Japanese plate armor from the 16th century? It was used mainly in the eastern provinces (Tōgoku) around the Tenshō era (1573-1592) and it was quite different with the designs in use in the western provinces.
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I have just finished the first two episodes of the new FX Shōgun and oh boy, I am positively impressed for once!! I liked how the plot was narrated, the atmosphere and the overall attention to detail. It is not perfect, but I am looking forward for the next episodes.
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Sekiro: Shadow Die Twice is a game that is set in a fictional late Sengoku period. Despite the presence of supernatural elements tied with Japanese legends and tales, the accuracy in terms of arms and armor is surprising. The Seven Ashina Spears is one of those nice details!
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For the sake of this thread, I want to focus on Arms&Armor of the 1575-1615 as it is a rather complex and nuanced topic. And because most of sources available discuss the topic of sword against armor in such framework, with extensive material from the Edo period.
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I finally found this lad in historical artwork of the period. From the 法然上人絵巻, 13th century.
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Nicolao Lancillotto information on Japan - Goa, 1548.
A detailed account from early Portuguese sources on the way Japanese warriors of the Tenbun era fought and armed themselves.
"5. It is said that in Japan there are mail skirts, breastplates, helmets, gorgets, and bracers
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Facts&Myths on Japanese swords (日本刀) - a thread of threads. Over the years among swords enthusiasts, Japanese swords have been discussed quite extensively. From iron sand to finish, here a collection of arguments based on test, literature and scientific sources🧵
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Nerigawa or nerikawa (練革・煉革) is a key material used in Japanese armor making since the Nara period. It is often translated as "hardened rawhide", and it is essentially "leather" based armor. It was used to make sane (札) or lamellae and occasionally sword guards too.
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Using a cut-centric sword to target the non protected areas is a straight forward idea and it is still part of the repertoire of techniques of many koryū schools, known as Kaisha Kenjutsu (介者剣術). It targets the inside of the arm, around the neck, the inside of the leg etc.
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Ultimately, in 16th/17th century Japan, at the height of its armored combat period, swords were not the main tool designed to deal with it (minus some specific exceptions). Spears, polearms, daggers and most importantly bows and guns were the favoured weapons in such scenario.
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I am impressed on how far this has reached. I am struggling to keep up with all the comments but I am grateful this has got enough attention to stir questions, critics and insightful conversations. It is an invite of people with experience in Japanese martial art to join as well!
On the development of tools in their own context - Japanese swords and discguards.
This is a post that will address one of the lastest video on the topic, in which we see why it is important to consider how discguards should be used before evaluating their functionality.
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Few points on the latest video from the Shadiversity crew that I did not like. I often refuse to chip in but I was asked and I think someone with knowledge on the scientific and historical sources should have a say to least prevent the spread of myths and overall "bad science"🧵
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Been reading through some historical documents commenting on the quality of Japanese armors from both European and Joseon/Ming accounts (though translated in modern Japanese, so keep that in mind).
It is extremely interesting:
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When it comes to (late) Japanese armor, especially in the west, it is common practice to emphasize the relative large gaps in the armor. Everyone is well aware that with a sword, it would be extremely impractical to strike directly at the Dō or Kabuto, being made of plates.
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This is, however, a partial analysis.
There were different degree of protection when it comes to Japanese armor - auxiliary armor pieces were worn to address these gaps. A lot of cuts on the inside of the arm will be useless if the kote has mail there, for example.
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Within this context, what do we know about Japanese swords and their evolution related to armor? In the 14th century, we see the development of thicker blades with slender and long points. This tip geometry is known as Ōkissaki (大切先), opposed to the classic chū kissaki(中切先)
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This is arguably one of my favourite Japanese armor. It belonged to the late Satake Yoshishige (1547-1612), and it was probably made during the Keichō era (1596-1615) since the museum list this as Azuchi Momoyama - Edo period. By this time,
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A thread on the development of plate armor in Japan.
It is a well known fact that by the mid to late 16th century, plate armor started to be developed in Japan side to side to the well established lamellar design, a process that lead to the creation of tōsei gusoku.
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Not many people are aware of the activities of Japanese mercenaries across south east asia during the late 16th and early 17th century. A key historical figure of such instances is Yamada Nagamasa (山田長政, 1590–1630), who served under King Songhtam in the early 1600s.
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A proper depiction of late Sengoku period (1580s) armored warrior from the eastern regions of Japan (Tōhoku and Kantō). The artwork was made by
@yoritomoart
and here on this thread I will talk about the features of this armor and its refererences
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Furthermore, when dealing with the martial art, as I am not a well versed practitioner, I would limit myself to report the techniques and describe them as they are described in the references.
I want to discuss the topic focusing on the tools, primarily. Let's start!
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Just to make a super-simplified and clear timeline for Japanese armor evolution through the 16th century.
1550: classic medieval haramaki and dō maru, akoda nari kabuto, ōsode and tsubo sode, mainly laced armor. These armor were in use until the 1600
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Very interesting take on Nanban gusoku (南蛮具足) by armorer Robert MacPherson. This was made 30 years ago and while the Japanese parts are slightly lacking ( not properly lacquered nor laced), it is an impressive attempt from a foreign smith.
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Jingasa (陣笠). Probably one of the most famous Japanese armor item associated with ashigaru, or foot infantry of the Muromachi and Azuchi momoyama periods. The history of these "war hats" is rather intriguing and worth exploring.
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If one looks at my youtubers' replies, one would only see Shad from Shadiversity, despite the various personalities dealing with these topics on you tube. So why is that? Is it personal? Of course not
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There are so many different options for the outer layers of Japanese armor, and it pains me to see it diluted into a very plastic, fake looking spray-paint. There is no real comparison with the real material, just as much aluminum foil finish does not look like plate armor.
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A very nice comparison between an early to mid 16th century Haramaki and a late 16th century maru dō. Similar armors but very different shape and structures. You can tell the difference between the Muromachi and late Momoyama periods.
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My mission on the internet is to share my passion and knowledge through the use of sources on Japanese Arms&Armor, their history and their cultural role. That's what "Gunsen History" is all about.
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With the wide spectrum of armor to consider, the most protective gear will nullify most of these cut techniques. Here, you need to use the point to bypass the mail covering the weak spots, half swording etc; not dissimilar to the European tradition.
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Happy new years guys🐉 According to the traditional Chinese calendar 2024 will be the year of the Dragon. Despite the different date with the lunar calendar, in Japan the new years eve will be celebrated today.
Looking forward to share my projects with you in the following year!
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When facing the high-end armor technology of the period, specialized swords as the one above and a good deal of techniques will be needed to overcome it. That being said, without even going to discuss how to use armor to your own advantage. This topic is huge.
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Honda Tadakatsu armor. It is known as kuro ito odoshi maru dō gusoku (黒糸縅丸胴具足, black odoshi laced maru dō armor) and it is usually associated with him, although the features of this armor place it closer to its later life in the Keichō era, definitely around the 1600.
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Such blades have a stronger advantage at delivering cuts with the tip and their slender point can be used to bypass flexible armor, or slip in between plates. In this sense, we can see a form of development towards fighting armor, compared to the average chū kissaki katana.
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A quick thread on the weight of Japanese armor. As many things related to Japanese arms&armor, the general perception is on two extremes: it is either super light and flexible or something unberable and heavy. Some facts based on proper data, depending on the type of armor ー>
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After being inspired by many in the historical communities, I am seriously planning to get a commission on a real suit of armor. Not sure how and when, but I think if you want to know more, you need the real thing. It is a whole process, but these are some of the ideas I have 🧵
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So why am I addressing primarily those videos? I know this practice creates mixed feelings. I do not want to create drama, pick a target and get followers out of it, anything like that.
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Few artist can represent Japanese armor as good as nemui. Giving him support is a little price, but seeing his works in details is priceless!
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I always loved how Frois described the Niō dō donated to Philip II as "too beautiful and fragile to resist our spears" when there is an identical suit from the same time period that has a bullet proof mark, both on the helmet and on the dō.
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Therefore, when considering the variety of armor of this time frame in Japan, your " regular" katana is quite suitable. Even when dealing with minimal armored limbs, if they are on the light side of the spectrum, you can still damage the bones underneath.
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So let's continue with my response to Shad on his Japanese armor video as I think there are still points worth discussing. This is part 2!
For the previous one:
I want to talk about this, but I want to make a short premise before diving into this video, since there is a lot to talk about.
This is Part 1.
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So - why Shad et al from Shadiversity? Why not Metatron, Skallagrim or anyone else? To put it simply - Shadiversity is the most prolific, and the channel I feel has the most content that can be addressed. He has more than 20 related videos on Japanese swords, and now also armor.
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Something that I keep reading online when people (cluelessly) talks about Japanese Arms&Armor in the context of steel making is that the Tatara furnace was not able to melt the "iron", which in turn was full of impurities hence why it required the folding process.
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Common Japanese armour misconceptions: the Nanban Dō. If you have ever read about the development of tōsei gusoku armor in the azuchi momoyama period, it is very likely you have come across the influence of European armor and the Nanban dō. Let's clarify some myths
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When I talk about Japanese armor on this platform and on my research work, I always try to depict a very specific picture.
I tend to focus on the most protective, high-end and "enclosing" gear available in the late Sengoku and early Edo periods for the most.
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In case more armor is present, the techniques of Kaisha kenjutsu will allow you to strike at the enemy armors gaps, using a mix of cuts, stabs and grappling to defeat the opponent.
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Among my top 10 misconceptions on Japanese swords, warfare and related military history I have the "Effects of the Mongol/Yuan invasion" of the late 13th century. If you have read about it, you probably know what I am talking about it.
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Here is a thread on common Japanese Armors replica based on their product description, their historical accuracy in what they are trying to portrait, and their overall functionality. This is based on what I have been able to observe and see compared to the real items🧵
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My good friend Arthur made a quick edit on the illustrations done by YoritomoArt to better visualize the different components of Kantō gusoku during the 1575-85.
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@yoritomoart
Seriously. I'm sorry to say it, but it is quite evident that a good part (maybe a very loud minority but I am not so sure) of people with an interest in European military history has a massive inferiority complex when it comes to Japanese history and culture so they feel the need
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Looking into the Taiheiki (太平記) I found and interesting passage that describe the battle of Sumiyoshi (住吉合戦) in 1348.
It describes the feats of Amna Ryōgan (安間了願). Despite the epic tone of the work, it is an interesting description of the fight.
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First item that comes to mind, is the color. So the issue here is that with many replicas on the market, real urushi or Japanese lacquer is not used. The finish is quite cheap and does not look authentic at all. That is one of the major problem with the overall look here.
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Extremely similar parallel and designs in these two not-so-different styles of armors: a European brigandine and a Japanese kawatsuzumi dō.
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Friendly reminder that all of these are forms of Japanese armors, in use throughout the late part of the 16th century. Plate, lamellar, "plate and mail" structures were used in Japan to protect the wearer.
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The second point on the list is the material, the thickness, the hardness and overall quality. Some statements were made concerning the average quality of Japanese and European armor, being made of iron, but the video did not acknowledge the high-end examples of Japanese armor.
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A bit late to the party, but I really like how the Nanbokuchō jidai is portrayed in the upcoming indie game Warlord: Awaji. Unfortunately my pc is too weak to run the game but there is currently an open beta where you can test it yourself!
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This is an interesting take on the Japanese sword making process. While not perfect, I am glad some misconcenptions have been addressed like the (in)famous satetsu quality
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A preview of my incoming work on Japanese arms and armour of the Tōgoku regions during the Sengoku period. It is still WIP, with some details getting polished.
This is a brief section describing the use of yari on horseback!
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And he always try to mix discussion on sample review and use, historical context, the construction, the myths associated and so on. Not even the Metatron, who is interested in Japanese history, has this much specific content on the topic! There is much to discuss from him.
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Hopefully next year I will have more time to improve and train on my armor sketches!
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@Fabulous_Corvid
Probably not, but maybe people will find this thread and learn something new nonetheless!
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Today I had the pleasure to visit the Eastern Museum in the city of Lisbon. The Portuguese were the first European to visit Japan, so it was an interesting experience.
The pictures of the items are not that great due to the lights, but here are some!
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Today I'll talk about the typical armor of the warriors from the western areas (Kinki and Chūgoku) which originated under the Toyotomi regime, developed in the 1580s. The art was made by
@yoritomoart
A proper depiction of late Sengoku period (1580s) armored warrior from the eastern regions of Japan (Tōhoku and Kantō). The artwork was made by
@yoritomoart
and here on this thread I will talk about the features of this armor and its refererences
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