Andrew Stone
@GAndrewStone
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@VitalikButerin
How about we actually look at the technical merits of nChain's proposals rather then turn this into a pissing contest between personalities?
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@Justin_Bons
@DesheShai
Can I offer an argument that turing complete (with blockchain as the tape) contracts are suboptimal?
"blind signing" is a big symptom of the problem.
Transactions should state their ledger state modifications in a non-turing complete and simple manner, so wallets can tell user
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@DesheShai
You are right, that lead was too strong. Sorry about that. As I qualified at the end, I just did a quick read of the whitepaper. But looking at DAG chains in general, either they don't form consensus on the ledger (vs. order of msgs), or they reduce to a blockchain.
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@DesheShai
But a proof of chain membership (of a tx presumably) does not prove tx validity in distributed time stamp systems (whereas they do in satoshi-style blockchains) because there may be an earlier tx that invalidates this one.
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My favorite part of BTC segwit/taproot is how it gives onchain data storage (ordinal NFTs) a 75% fee discount, and barely increases monetary transaction capacity with the result that for every 1MB of tx data, there's 3mb of garbage.
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@DesheShai
"may happen after subsequent spends" is perhaps most important. Its a disaster to unwind. The diverged coins may be mixed with good coins poisoning them and passing through many hands (all on the buggy client) before discovery. Much better to split or reject than to mix.
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@DesheShai
I have only read the kas whitepaper (and stated that at the time) so I kept my comments deliberately general, and focused on BCH SLP which I know more about. However, my concern is not about anything you mention above. Its about what happens in the face of client bugs. (cont)
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@Justin_Bons
@DesheShai
The blockchain can and should have a very sophisticated language to determine transaction validity though. $nexa
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@DesheShai
With miner consensus the failure is obvious. The chain forks or the client stops following the tip. In client consensus models, all clients follow the same chain even tho not in consensus. It's nontrivial for people to discover the problem & may happen after subsequent spends
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@DesheShai
I forget the coloring convention you use so I'm not going to say red vs blue, but aren't the "wrong colored" blocks effectively orphaned?
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@DesheShai
P.S. i think you need to tone the rhetoric down a notch and focus on the tech. I am making no anti-kas stmt because: 1. I am no kas expert. 2. Many things are tradeoffs. 3. We dont need to fight eachother
I'm saying why Nexa does not use DAG chains, then twitter happens...
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@DesheShai
You must rely on a benevolent oracle to provide a proof of the preceding tx, or to say that there is none. One solution is for the system to periodically commit to a summary valid previous tx, but that likely collapses your DAG into a chain, or undermines purpose of DAG...
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@DesheShai
alright reading PHANTOM... so you've clearly given away SPV proofs, even if "prob that GHOSTDAG's order between tx1 and tx2 changes... decreases exponentially". I can still provide a proof of tx2, and there are not efficient non-existence proofs since tx order in block arbitrary
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BCH is driving this crypto rally and dragging BTC along. First time BTC's been in the back seat?
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@DesheShai
Now let's consider bugs in your clients. Paper says "PHANTOM achieves consensus on the order of blocks, and this guarantees agreement on the set of accepted transactions as well." NOT TRUE! Its only true for bug-for-bug compatible clients.
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@DesheShai
thx! I've forwarded your observation to one of the authors. It would be good to accurately portray Kaspa in the paper...
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@DesheShai
You achieve *ordering consensus* but bitcoin et. al. achieves *ledger consensus* & buggy nodes that disagree fork off or get stuck. This is client consensus (of the ledger). [Aside: BTC white paper is inconsistent on this which is the subject of my 1st lecture at UMASS].
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@DesheShai
So that means full nodes only. But then who cares about scale because how many payments u make from your laptop? Or phone wallets that trust a full node. But this is a censorship vector since the wallet probably hits its creator's set of nodes which can be shut down.
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@DesheShai
But both accept that chain. In systems like SLP, and BTC ordinals, this situation can persist so long as spends of A and B stay within the same client software. I'd guess that this subsequent issue is not a problem in kas. Another issue is SPV proofs.
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@DesheShai
Reading sec 3.5 "main result", I would not agree with that def of scalability "safe to increase block creation rate without compromising security". Scalability is how resource use changes as a function of # transactions.
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BU and I were some of the strongest voices against the looting that's named "the IFP" the first time around, and so it should be obvious that we will not accept it now.
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@DesheShai
In BTC et. al. a bug resulting in a consensus difference causes a hard fork. In client consensus models, there is no immediate hard fork because invalid state is allowed onchain. So given 2 tx, A and B one client thinks A is valid and the other thinks B. One is buggy (cont).
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BU developer awemany discovered the recent Core/ABC/SV bug:
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@DesheShai
So another tradeoff. How deeply does KAS go into client consensus? Can you spend doublespends? Can you include illegal spends and then "spend" those? (BCH SLP was full client consensus, the results were not pretty...) But hoping KAS differs from full client consensus...
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@mindstatex
@BitcoinUnlimit
@SteinLudvigsen
@Adrian_Xt
Was going to be today, but there's a build issue on OSX so its now looking like the release will happen tomorrow.
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@jeff_foust
...a carefully worded statement giving the public absolutely no real data. This prevents us from making an assessment, which is perhaps the point.
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@mononautical
The problem is more likely the client mistaking the value of the coins coming in. Modern chains like Nexa solve this by making the transaction commit to or explicitly specify the input amounts.
If BTC would hard fork, this and a bunch of other small things could be cleaned up.
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@_LR_
@ProfFaustus
@CowOperate
@CalvinAyre
@VitalikButerin
wow, more plagiarism. Will he never learn? old assembly code:
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@DesheShai
I disagree that it must be qualitative. You can model a blockchain's latency, scalability, resource usage, and security as a function of inputs like network latency, hash power, etc.
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@DesheShai
hmm... I would call that latency. The time from transaction broadcast until the energy to undo is > X.
If a blockchain with a single 10 GB block per day has high scalability...
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@OriNewman
@DesheShai
I'm aware. There are 2 reasoning paths from here. 1. explore indistinguishability (by light clients) of normal DAG branches from forks. 2. recognize the portion of PHANTOM that's miner consensus (most of it?) and the portion that's client (tx validity due to prior spends).
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You will look back on ordinal/BRC-20 as a canary. Its the first time the tail (ETH) wagged the dog (BTC). But it will not challenge other token systems because of vulnerabilities: silent (client consensus) forks and indistinguishable outputs. Its benefit is only co-loc on BTC
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@Ginkgo_tree_Kr
Bug is not in Bitcoin Unlimited
@btc_unlimited
, that big green wedge in the graph you posted.
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@DesheShai
Security is how much energy to change? Or in a blockchain context, how many hashes are downstream of a transaction.
My intuition is all these sibling blocks must result in more resource use per tx and fewer or same downstream hashes.
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2016 document that proposes replacing sigop counting with the simpler and more accurate method of input length: . Would have avoided BCH bug if deployed.
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Remember to UPGRADE BU () to V1.9.2 in the next few days! We've got about 150 nodes that need to be upgraded:
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@_unwriter
getrawtransaction takes the cs_main lock, so its serialized with itself and lots of other operations. But since its read-only, it should be possible to remove that lock. I will add getrawtransaction to our stress tests and optimize.
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ChatGPT is the internet mind communicating its aggregate opinion to its neurons, us. Feedback.
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@yhaiyang
stop making excuses for the BCH "leadership" that has deployed whatever hard fork features it wanted (and more importantly *NOT deployed* other features) regardless of community feedback.
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@bchautist
@Justin_Bons
@DesheShai
Its interesting that a non-turing complete program can verify a turing complete one, if called repeatedly. So we've isolated the single operation (1 potentially infinite loop) that differentiates.
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@SteinLudvigsen
@BTC_de_Blog
@MKjrstad
@dgenr818
@im_uname
@_unwriter
@BitcoinUnlimit
@jtoomim
nobody should have a free pass to change consensus rules. But too many people are thinking "because I don't have a use for X, let's not allow". Money is a network tying together disparate uses. So instead think "I can imagine that X might be useful for some -- let's include."
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rereading "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" its clear that IFP is the culmination of ABC's effort to bulldoze the bazaar and build a cathedral dev environment on top of the bodies.
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@zawy3
@DesheShai
You can estimate the HR (assuming you mean hash rate) by publishing near solutions (weak blocks) or even just their headers. Don't need a DAG or consensus change for that. Just need more samples...
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@CoinstorageGuru
@connolly_dan
@Falkvinge
@blogzap_
@OnWindowly
We were not silent. For example . But miners vote with their hash power, and on both sides they voted overwhelming for separation.
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BU's Nexa cryptocurrency is starting june 21. for more info see or reddit r/Nexa
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@OriNewman
@DesheShai
As I tweeted previously, PHANTOM comes to consensus on the order of messages (and maybe some properties). It does not come to consensus on the ledger b/c doublespends ok in validated blocks. Each client must look for prior spends to determine if tx updates ledger.
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@ercwl
We (Bitcoin Unlimited) were testing interoperability with ABC (2 implementations of Bitcoin Cash) in rare edge cases when this bug caused a divergence because it was triggered in ABC. Awemany traced the code history back to Core.
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@BitcoinMagazine
@mcshane_writes
No. Inflationary policy is undermining the dollar as the world reserve currency.
Bitcoin is the lifeboat.
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@DesheShai
Which leads to the last thing: paper doesn't even address "null hypothesis". It needs to show a wide DAG is better in those metrics (uses fewer resources, transactions accrue security faster) than a narrow one (e.g. rarely branching tree AKA blockchain). Maybe it does? IDK
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@CobraBitcoin
just think where bitcoin would be if all the features in liquid had been added to bitcoin along with the block capacity to use them.
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@CobraBitcoin
But why intervene? its so fun to watch the core devs prove that they don't understand the system they coopted, with more layers of cruft over hacks and bandaids to control a permissionless network and stop a fancy-word redo of a decade old, painfully limited token technology.
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@Zectro1
To top it off, I've explained why that result is completely irrelevant here: . In short, the blockchain isn't the tape...
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@SatoshiLite
So head over to /r/btc and praise SegWit? You won't be censored, might not even be downvoted if you say interesting stuff.
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@robustus
There's 2 strategies: regulation is a form of precrime, anticipating and preventing possible crimes, and enforcement is punishing transgressors (which is itself a deterrent). It feels like these 2 strategies are applied unevenly and recently to EXACTLY the wrong companies.
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@SonOfATech
@NexaMoney
Fix is released! Quick summary: some nodes hit a code path where a new script feature was simply not turned "on" (bug). Use of the feature caused a fork with a minority of nodes rejecting the tx that used the new feature.
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@deadalnix
@gavinandresen
Yet BU, not Classic or XT, succeeded in getting 50% BTC hash, proposed the Bitcoin Cash hard fork, and delivered SW (with ABC). Imperfection happens when working with the code for only a month. After a year+ of study you made ABC and already have a hard fork bug.
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@CalvinAyre
But "your side" also wants to remove DSV because it can be implemented with the current opcodes. So I guess we better start removing those opcodes too.
#MutuallyDestructivePropaganda
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@dgenr818
How is the data in OP_RETURN somehow more special than the data in the transaction, so that they confirm transfer of ownership but the transaction data does not?
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@ViaBTC
@btc_unlimited
@BitcoinClassic
@bitcoincoreorg
Great I am happy to work with you to deploy Bitcoin Unlimited in your network!
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The problem isnt unregulated crypto. The problem is the transition to DYOR. We saw this same transition in 2008. People trusted the banks' judgement on whether they were good for a mortgage. But invention of MBS meant banks no longer cared. So lots of personal bankruptcies.
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@ccatalini
@gavinandresen
You've bought into an unproven core narrative. Its very possible that BCH will be MORE decentralized. Who wants to run a full node if only banks can afford to participate? On the other hand, a reasonable home computer and connection can keep up with BCH easily.
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@jtoomim
@Adrian_Xt
@OrphanBlocks
@mindstatex
@toomuch72
@SteinLudvigsen
@theantnest
@StackmyBCHup
@Zigadeebong
@CalvinAyre
@deadalnix
@FloweeTheHub
@ProfFaustus
@shadders333
@BitcoinSVNode
@connolly_dan
The Aug 15 deadline was a cutoff date not a commitment date. Everything with spec & 1 impl by then is a candidate. Prior to that date there was no presentation of CTOR to the community. This is why criticism of it from BU, XT, and Flowee happened starting at that date.
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This looks very interesting. Who will be the first miner to try it out?
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@SonOfATech
@NexaMoney
Ironically this is hard to test -- our test chains independently control feature activation so the feature and activation itself can be tested before mainnet activation. So the mainnet *activation itself* can only be tested on mainnet.
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@ErikVoorhees
Ever get the feeling you're backing the wrong horse? A strong position emerges from a strong theoretical foundation
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predicted the recent BCHA accidental fork ()
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@NicerInPerson
@zawy3
@danieleripoll
Yes total revenue per block is important, but entirely discounting hash is a mistake. A lot goes into that. For example, taking advantage of untapped sources of surplus energy is energy that an attacker can't use. And ASIC improvements means attacker must buy the newest equip
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@yhaiyang
Don't steal money from investors, either directly or by reintroducing lost coins, diluting holders.
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Verifying myself: I am andrewstone on Keybase.io. zYbRG0mJdFY0VN5wg0HyjYr2xG6YS2xXsgGw /
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@JimmyWinMedia
@dgenr818
BU supports the SV chain, its a simple config parameter to enable it.
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@adam3us
@rogerkver
so then scale it. 2mb mainchain and segwit. Its completely obvious net can handle 2mb. SW uses more.
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After 7 failed votes its time to realise trumpism isnt republican -- there are 3 parties in the house.
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@ari_cryptonized
@deadalnix
@gavinandresen
After BU paves a nice highway through a warzone, you are welcome to drive your car down it for a picnic and complain that the craters mar the scenery.
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@mindstatex
fun with testnet today:
http://144.217.126.201:13001/block/0000000023467664fb7d5ec50cbd4d3831b0fd744176fbe5eb673030a587c6dd
(166302 tx, 31999125 bytes)
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@vinarmani
@m4ktub2
@toomuch72
@Bitcoin_ABC
@BitcoinUnlimit
@deadalnix
I don't control, I enable. This is a fundamental difference morally and delivers great productivity when offered to capable and motivated people.
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Forkless inclusion of Functions, Loops, and New OpCodes in Bitcoin Script
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@KanevLubo
@BitcoinUnlimit
Miner validated, efficient-membership proof (SPV capable), UTXO commitments are very valuable. Important for scaling, fast sync, to efficiently prove recent UTXO ownership extra-blockchain, and even to supply such a proof to a script.
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@zawy3
@NicerInPerson
@danieleripoll
As BTC grows to fill sources of surplus energy, these attacks become much more expensive and noticable because you'd have to redirect energy from other uses. And if your new HW is X% more efficient, do you even have 100 + X dark obsolete HW to deploy?
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@shadders333
@jtoomim
@_lktk
@Adrian_Xt
@toomuch72
@SteinLudvigsen
@mindstatex
@theantnest
@StackmyBCHup
@Zigadeebong
@CalvinAyre
@deadalnix
@FloweeTheHub
@ProfFaustus
@BitcoinSVNode
@connolly_dan
When I wrote BUIP098, I did a quick assess: had nChain had met dates? 1: Found pull requests were issued to ABC. 2:
@shadders
provided me with code in his ABC fork. Its ok that l8r mods were made: Steve listened and is moving carefully with 500 inst. That's point of review.
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Crypto market seems to have resolved the risk-on vs. inflation hedge conundrum.
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@deadalnix
@vinarmani
Bitcoin unlimited went green in our qt splash over a year ago, everyone is slowly moving over to a look that is differentiated from BTC, and is associated with money rather than gold.
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@Horace34687264
@im_uname
@freeAgent85
@pokkst
@be_cashy
That's a 12 block reorganization, so if the network was "in consensus", all nodes would have ignored this fork due to the finalization rule. Yet there are reports that many nodes followed the fork... remember that your node's logs are subjective.
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@balajis
We have implemented a proof of concept and a (draft) spec: . Please review! Sorry the formatting is a little rough when viewed in github -- it displays properly once you log into (eating our own dogfood).
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@ckpooldev
You know what would be much more awesome? Proving the DoS protection using tx with dense economic activity, and doing so 6 years ago, before crypto tx demand outstripped BTC supply space.
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@twobitidiot
Dems should take note; its a VERY dangerous game to make people choose between the likely loss of financial freedom vs possible-but-seems-too-incredible-to-actually-happen loss of democracy.
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@clemensley
Why not write a rebuttal? I'd love to read it. People don't tend to tweet or livestream technical discussion because these things require careful thought not quick comebacks.
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Why Bitcoin (Cash) Script is Nearly Useless (and what to do about it)
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When did we all decide that holding fiat shouldn't be an investment in the growth and development of your whole country?
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@DavidShares
Seems like he's pushing payment processors (aka banks) for small value tx. But if you do the math, I'll bet the end result is EVERY individual tx is "small value". Bitcoin becomes bank settlement network.
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All the upside of the dollar and all the risk of an experimental technology running novel algorithms within a custodial startup hemorrhaging its seed money. What about these systems was attractive? What about them have anything to do with cryptocurrency?
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